- Just ahead on Black Issues Forum, after thousands of viewers joined our conversation about the changing role of the black church, we're continuing the dialogue.

This time we're focusing on the search for purpose, connection, and spiritual growth.

Can spiritual alignment exist with or without the institution of church?

And what practices help us stay grounded, connected, and whole?

We find out coming up next.

Stay with us.

- Quality public television is made possible through the financial contributions of viewers like you who invite you to join them in supporting PBS NC.

(upbeat music) ♪ - Welcome to Black Issues Forum, I'm Kenia Thompson.

When we first explored the changing relationship between black communities and the church, the response was overwhelming.

A conversation generated thousands of views online and sparked passionate discussions across generations.

Some viewers felt seen, others felt challenged, and many asked us for a part two.

So we're continuing the dialogue.

We're here asking questions about what the spiritual alignment actually look like and can it be found inside the church, outside the church, or both?

Joining us is returning guest, Minister Khalid Greenaway with Dunamis Ministries, whose perspective on healing, spirituality, and personal transformation created significant conversation during our first discussion.

Also joining him is Reverend Latonya Agard of Transformation Fellowship Christian Church, who brings both pastoral experience and a deep understanding of the black church's role in community life.

I wanna thank you both for being here.

- Thank you.

- I also want to acknowledge that we did extend invitations to the original panelists, but unfortunately, Pastor Renwick and Reverend Williams both wanted to be here, but schedules could not align.

So I just wanted to make sure that everybody knew that.

I do wanna start off first, though, with kind of an overview of our last conversation.

So we started with the question, why are people leaving the black church?

And so before we hop into this discussion, I wanted to share a clip from our previous one that addressed that question.

- You have to look at the age demographic of who is leaving the church.

And in the black church, it is Millennials and Gen Zers, who are the biggest age gap that are missing from most mainline historically black churches in the country.

- And I think there's various reasons for that.

And I think right off the top, it's an easy one, is the low-hanging fruit is church hurt.

You know, judgment, condemnation, and people in certain ways, or as far as the bondage that it creates.

But also I think there is hypocrisy, at least from their perspective.

They see hypocrisy.

And so when they live with huge platforms, they see inconsistent morality.

And so we see individuals that are teaching or preaching one segment of the way that life should be lived, but they aren't living it.

- I'm seeing they want more, and they have more access to information through their phones so they can find out the truth.

So when we used to try to question things, we got shut down, and they want something real, like pastors saying, and they really want to experience freedom and the power, and they're tired of the bondage.

You know, and now I really feel like now they're asking questions, and they're knowing, they're sensing that it's more, 'cause something that pastor says all the time is the truth, I give witness to it on the inside, because we're so much more than just these physical forms.

- So that was from our previous conversation, and we went on to talk about a lot of much more robust topics as it pertains to spirituality.

Khalid, you know, many of the comments just, again, some people agreed, some people disagreed, some people were left with, I want to understand more, I want more, and more, and more.

Why do you think this struck a chord with so many people?

- There's several different reasons, and for me, as some of my belief system, core belief system, 'cause I was, I told you before, as a child, I was groomed into ministry at eight years old, in more of an Episcopalian-type setting, and transitioned into more of a Pentecostal, Protestant-type of setting.

And for me, it was challenging, because I just did certain things ritualistically growing up.

You know, I came from an environment where you go to confirmation class to have communion and that kind of thing, and then, but now I've transitioned to more of a relationship with God, you know?

So that was challenging for me.

I remember when I first met Pastor Terenawik, I became upset, 'cause he challenged something.

You know what I'm saying?

- So you're saying people could relate to that.

- Relate to it, and I had positive feedback as well.

People was DMing me and things like that, with questions, and I'll answer the questions, and things like that.

So I say it was 99% positive, actually, you know what I mean?

- Very good.

- And that other piece, you know, 'cause it's always putting yourself, me being here is in a vulnerable position, so you opening yourself up, but I feel like a lot of people are on the same journey that I was on, and that's fine, because certain information that I couldn't handle then, I can handle now.

It doesn't mean, it's not the end of the world, but for me, my whole identity was caught up in a specific religion.

It's not that I don't identify as a Christian, but now I'm more open.

- Yeah, and it opened up doors for conversation.

Reverend Agard, when you watched the episode back, what were some things that stood out to you?

- A couple of things that stood out for me were just the nuanced views of what it means to be a person seeking a life of faith, right?

And so we have people who are living in different kinds of structures.

We have others who are coming from different backgrounds, not necessarily Christian.

They could be coming from other religious backgrounds.

And so one of the things that stood out for me is that the questions that came out really sparked conversation about what does it mean to be someone who is seeking deeper spirituality?

And what does it mean to seek after God?

Are the structures that we have now, are they fading away?

Is the church under this time of revolution again?

Are things evolving?

And yet with all of that evolution as human beings, we still want some of the same core things.

And I believe, Khalid, you mentioned that people want belonging, people want love, people need connection.

- Need to find that purpose.

- Yeah, and underneath all of that is just those deep longings that we all have as human beings.

So I really thought the conversation last time really brought that out and sparked some new questions for folks.

- I love that.

When you bring up purpose, belonging, finding that connection, what does that look like in practicality?

Khalid, I'll start with you, and then in and out of the church.

- In and out of the church.

Okay, even as a board licensed counselor, there's certain things I give people because without a sense of purpose, really I see a lot of clients struggle with depression, anxiety, all these different things, because even the word enlightenment, it means to illuminate, right?

So if I'm running in a cave and I don't see any light and I keep running, I keep running, after a while I'm gonna stop, where am I even going?

So when you realize things like no one comes here barren, right, so that means everything before that chair was formed it was formed inside someone, there was a specific purpose for it being created.

I think that's very important for someone to look at themselves and their life, but specific practices that I really like that I even, I overlooked, that is right there, and it's not about just the Christian Bible, but that's the reference point I can pull from at this moment is it mentions the word meditation in the Hebrew version over a hundred times.

So many people took that as, I'm just reading a scripture over and over again, when it's really how they got that, right?

There was no canonized Bible, they had no been in 83, 97, the cathedral of Carthage or whatever, they came together and made certain decisions with the Roman Catholic Church as far as what's gonna be in the canonized, there was not that, there was just download Apostle Paul, Moses, these people were getting, it was this direct line.

And for me, okay, let's talk about a brief moment, the science behind meditation, right?

What's the word means to look within, is it's to create a detachment from the ego.

So there found a couple of things happen, people become more clairvoyant, they're more empathetic, they can perceive what's going on, it ups your IQ by 10 points, it makes it harder to experience anxiety, depression, it creates- - Or being in alignment with the purpose.

- Exactly.

So coherent state gives you what?

A feeling of fulfillment.

That means I'm connected to everything and everyone, and I could perceive that I'm not my body on certain levels.

- Yeah.

Reverend Agard, when you think of purpose and the church's role in helping someone find that purpose, what does that look like?

- You know, when I think about the church and the church's role in helping people find purpose, I think deeply about community.

- Yeah.

- And when we think about this current moment and I would say the scattering of believers, which really we saw it happen during COVID, but I believe the indicators were there before COVID and COVID just allowed us to really be honest about, you know, this thing is not working for me, which is why we see so many churches still struggling post COVID in order to get people to come back because people were already struggling with the notion of purpose.

But I do believe we find that most significantly in community because we are communal people.

We were born and created for community and connection.

And so the church really can help people identify and nurture their gifts, their ideas.

It's a place where you can seek.

I would love to say that church should be a place where you can make mistakes, where you can grow and you can learn with others and you can have people pour into you and give you insight.

- Do you feel like in actuality it is a place?

- Well, I think that that is the struggle that we find there are what I call wild spaces where this is happening.

But I think in a lot of ways, churches become oftentimes more interested in the ritual of having church, if you will.

We go through the litany, we go through the motions, but are we truly connecting on a deep level with self, with others and with God?

And so that is, I mean, that is the goal that I would say was part of the reason for planting our church was because I was a part of many congregations and I've been in many worship spaces, but you leave and you wonder, are people really being transformed?

Are we really experiencing quinnania, this deep connection?

And when we're not, it's easy for people to wander because we're still seeking that connection.

- And I think that's what we touched on a lot in the last episode, Khalid, was those ritualistic elements of church that kind of took us away from the actual relationship.

- That's the meaning of the word religion, religare, that's where it comes from, to bind, to bind to, but it means to bind to a community where the set of rituals and come together, it is no different from a club.

And that's why some people can view it as like, what's that word?

As a cultist type thing.

And so then if you take away that, right, the only way I can describe it is you take away the power behind it because it's supposed to be an incubator for growth.

So how am I fulfilled purpose if there's no one else to serve or to do it?

'Cause it's meant for me to use my gift to impact others.

- Well, you both have mentioned community multiple times now, right?

And I think in today's society of technology of online engagement, community looks different.

And correct me if I'm wrong, or tell me what it looks like, but is the church keeping up with what community needs to look like today?

- When we say is the church, capital C, there are pockets, right?

There are pockets where churches are being very intentional about cultivating worship and growth, spirituality in multiple formats, right?

So for people who still love to come together physically, but there are folks who have joined churches that are states away, but these churches are creating online and virtual spaces where people can worship and gather and meet in their location to do our service and to reach others.

So I do think it's happening, but it's not happening in every church location.

And so that is the challenge, to get churches to really rethink what it means to be faith community in this moment.

When Jesus came and was preaching and teaching, Jesus himself was talking about the need to change how we are connecting and how we are seeking God.

Jesus never said that you can't see God, but Jesus said that the way we're doing it is not what God intended.

So let's think about this some more and do something different.

And we need to meet the needs of this moment.

- I wanna get your thoughts on something she said that sparked a reminder of a conversation I had the other day about the difference between religion and spirituality, right?

So the new trend, again, we've mentioned this in the last conversation is having a spiritual connection, but not necessarily being in this religious mindset.

What is the difference, Khalid?

- It's a big difference.

It's just like why Jesus had a problem with the Pharisees.

One was ritualistic.

And I feel we have to factor in the motivation because I've found in the South, especially, and it stemmed from slavery.

I'm trying to, I'm gonna just talk.

It stemmed from slavery.

That was the most popular prestigious position available for blacks of the time.

But I've seen something that's trickled down, you know what I mean?

And largely a part of it, there was a story, I can't remember the name of the documentary, but he used going around and preaching and teaching and being a pastor as a way to build the income so he could purchase his wife and his family out of slavery and he double crossed them.

But when I came down here to the South, I played college basketball and I saw a lot of these guys.

I used to wonder why is their goal is like this prestigious thing.

I'm gonna be a pastor and be, then I, but my mindset was growing up, the pastor is supposed to serve, going to think and helping people and praying.

So I was like, why would anyone want to do that?

But out here, but then I realized one of my buddies, he's like, but the income and the prestige and stuff that comes with it, he was from the South.

I'm not from the South.

You know what I mean?

And with spirituality is more of connecting 'cause I talk about things like, I talk about meditation is a book that really changed my life, right?

Becoming Supernatural by Dr.

Joe Dispenza.

And I went to an online workshop and I started like perceiving things and my connection with God increased.

And I started to have a understanding of like, every concept from healing to what it means to have purpose, to not being judgmental, to true love, to really, I was able to like, there's the only way I could, is like the gifts of the spirit that we're talking about.

I saw being manifested through my life, things that I can't explain in the natural.

- What, so when we think about that shift, and I know you have something to add to that.

And we look at the younger generations that are shaping the way we transition church.

What influences have kind of changed the way religion has shifted to spirituality?

And I'll stop there and let you add.

- Yeah, what influences?

I think one, it was mentioned in the first conversation, the explosive access to information and the ability to connect literally to anyone on the globe through the small computer in our hands, I think has had a tremendous influence on this generation.

I also think that there's a disconnection, I think for a lot of people, young and old, in the church for the meaning of the rituals that we have held onto.

So I'm not anti-ritual or anti-religion, but when a ritual is separated from its deeper meaning, and that deeper meaning is not cultivated and nurtured and discussed, it can become simply something you do because this is what is in community.

- It's like not understanding our history or why the monuments are where we are.

- But it's just there.

But what is the purpose of it?

So I think there's a disconnect.

One of the most beautiful rituals, the two that we practice in our church, the ritual of baptism and the ritual of celebrating at the Lord's table, if you're not careful, it becomes something that we do just because we're here and we do it.

But when we think about the narrative connection between what that meal meant for Jesus and his disciples as they rehearsed their liberation and their connection to God, and allow people in that moment to rehearse their own narrative of how through their connection with God, they are being liberated, we are liberated, and that this moment, God is doing something special.

God is doing something mysterious.

- Is it okay to create our own new rituals?

- We do it all the time.

- We do it all the time.

I mean, the black community, we do it all the time.

We pour libations.

I mean, you all know about that, right?

We pour libations.

We create rituals all the time because a ritual is simply a repeated practice that you do either with oneself or community.

I think the key is what is the point of the ritual and how does it help you to connect with self, with God and with others in order to, I think Khalid said, use your gifts to serve others and to bring about what we call the beloved community.

So any new practice, I think I'm open to new practices.

Anything that helps us to do that, I think is good.

And Jesus, I think Jesus would say, yes, if it helps you to connect, if it helps you to seek me to serve others, what would be the, you know, what would be wrong with that?

- That's where we get into the growth space, right?

Of the spiritual growth.

What does spiritual growth look like?

We are in our day to day.

We are bogged down by all the things that life gives us.

We may not be recognizing that we are spiritually growing up.

Khalid, what does that look like?

- For me, my role model is Jesus and Christ consciousness.

So everyone has a standard, you know what I mean?

And walking in a level of, so passion and fulfillment, right?

But he had evidence, you know what I mean?

In front of him, from healing to teaching people, even his last prayer in John where it says, he says, when he prayed, he said, "Father, help them to understand like I'm one with you.

They're one with you and we're one with them and we're all one."

- Yes.

- You know what I mean?

So it's like, even what it says in 1 John 4:17, it says, let this mind be in you, that was in Christ Jesus, that did not call it robbery, to count himself as equal to God.

And he gave in many ways, when we understand that we're not these bodies and we're consciousness, and there were even all interconnected, there's another level of love.

You're gonna see it in their love.

I really feel like you're gonna see it in our ability to overcome natural circumstances, even as it comes to sickness and healing and creating wealth and things like that and wealth producing ideas.

So if you have the connection and you already have the desire, right?

So as Chris said, God gives you the desires of your heart.

They think it's just putting it in your hand.

Yeah, that's fine.

But the desire didn't even come from you.

Everyone has different preferences, proclivities, all those types of things.

But many people, and now I'm going to my therapist side, is they've told themselves stories 'cause faith come by hearing and you're conditioning yourself all day long.

Nothing has power within itself except the stuff you're giving power to 'cause according to your faith, be it onto you, something is just a situation.

If you open yourself up and you say, "Okay, God, what's the solution?"

And you quiet yourself 'cause there's a lot of noise in the egoic portion of us, the answers will come.

And that's what it means for me because this is a gym.

You know what I'm saying?

- I always say, if I'm just quiet enough to hear the whisper, then that's the guide.

What does spiritual growth look like to you?

- Spiritual growth to me looks like a life that is, I think I use the same word, growing in love.

We actually talked about this last night in our Bible study group when we were discussing what it means to have this new life we talk about in Christ.

The Bible says that if anyone is in Christ, you are a new creation.

All old things are passing away.

Behold, everything is becoming new.

So this idea of spiritual growth and spiritual alignment and purpose are all about our lives becoming more like the life of God.

And that life of God was made manifest or it was made real to us so that we could see 'cause we're seeing people in the person of Christ.

So what does that mean?

That means that I am becoming more humble so that I'm not thinking always of, am I doing this to serve myself or am I doing this because it really flows out of God's purpose for the world?

Because if God's doing that, then God is going to ensure that I am being taken care of as I live out my purpose, as I use my gifts for the service of the world.

And so my life, as I continue to grow, I'm becoming more joyful.

I am becoming more humble.

I am becoming bolder because I know what I believe and I know who I am.

And I think that's another key.

And you might agree, Khalid, when people are growing spiritually, there's a greater sense and a consciousness of who you are.

You're more confident about your identity.

And because you know that, you're able to walk more boldly in your purpose.

You're able to speak things that maybe you hadn't spoken before.

- Other people, our communities.

- Yes, and challenge things.

And I think the biggest thing for me is being willing to challenge my own beliefs.

And that is a sign of deep spiritual growth.

Why do I believe this?

- I wanna bring it full circle from where we started in the first conversation, right?

The impetus was, why are people leaving the church?

And in this conversation, as we come to a close, I wanna ask the question, and if someone who has experienced church hurt is standing in front of you, or someone who has decided they are not a believer, what would be the thing that you say to them that maybe causes them to reflect and to ask themselves the question, why have I taken myself away from this journey?

Khalid, I'll start with you.

And I know I just threw that out there.

I know I didn't mean to be hard.

- No, you're good, you're good.

- Yeah, that's good.

- No, the first thing I would do is I would lead with love, and I would be a demonstration because I'm the only Christ that some people may see.

So it was never meant to be dictated, but demonstrated.

You know what I mean?

And I think that's within these, that's where we have to be truly, be walking the pistol.

See, could Jesus never call himself a Christian, right?

He came to demonstrate a state of being, a state of consciousness.

So the only thing I can do is to love them and walk through, and I would start the way I start in therapy, right?

I simply ask people this.

I have two main questions, right?

- Yeah.

- It's who am I?

- Like 30 seconds.

- Okay, and then the next question is, what do you want your life experience to be like?

Because that's what I help people do, get what you want, what you really want, not what people tell you you can have.

- Yeah.

- Are you good?

- Yeah, what would I do?

I would tell that person, actually, I understand.

- Ooh, that's a good one.

- I understand.

Which means I understand that being hurt in the church or by church, however we want to phrase that, is deeply wounding because of our expectations that of all places that I would be safe, it would be here.

And when that happens, it is devastating.

I'd say I understand.

- I understand, I love that.

Reverend Latonya Agard, Khalid Greenaway, thank you both so much for being here.

- Thank you.

- I appreciate you.

I thank you for watching.

If you want more content like this, we invite you to engage with us on Instagram using the hashtag #BlackIssuesForum.

You can also find our full episodes on pbsnc.org/blackissuesforum and on the PBS video app.

I'm Kenia Thompson, I'll see you next time.

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