>>> HELLO, EVERYONE, AND WELCOME TO "AMANPOUR AND COMPANY."

HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.

>>> HOW WILL WASHINGTON RESPOND AFTER THE FIRST AMERICANS ARE TARGETED AND KILLED IN THE MIDDLE EAST SINCE OCTOBER 7th?

FORMER U.S.

AMBASSADOR TO ISRAEL DANIEL KURTZER JOINS ME ON THE RISING RISK OF A WIDER WAR.

>>> THEN, THE NORTH KOREAN DICTATOR DITCHES REUNIFICATION AND THREATENS TO SUB YOU GAIT THE SOUTH.

I SPEAK TO SOUTH KOREA'S FORMER FOREIGN MINISTER ABOUT PYONGYANG'S DANGEROUS POLICY SHIFT.

>>> ALSO -- >> HE AND HIS COLLEAGUES ARE 100% INNOCENT.

>> A DAUGHTER'S PLEA TO STOP BANGLADESH FROM LOCKING UP ONE OF ITS MOST FAMOUS CITIZENS, HER FATHER, MUHAMMAD YUNUS.

>>> PLUS -- >> DONALD TRUMP IS GOING TO BE THE DEFENDANT AND THE CANDIDATE.

>> DEMOCRACY ON TRIAL.

FILMMAKER MICHAEL KIRK TALKS TO HARI ABOUT THE INTRICATE DETAILS IN THE INDICTMENT OF DONALD TRUMP OVER JANUARY 6th.

>>> "AMANPOUR AND COMPANY" IS MADE POSSIBLE BY -- THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT.

JIM ATTWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS.

CANDACE KING WEIR.

THE FAMILY FOUNDATION OF LEILA AND MICKEY STRAUS.

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THE FILOMEN M. D'AGOSTINO FOUNDATION.

SETON J. MELVIN.

CHARLES ROSENBLUM.

KOO AND PATRICIA YUEN, COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES IN OUR COMMUNITIES.

BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG.

>>> ADDITIONAL SUPPORT PROVIDED BY THESE FUNDERS.

AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

THANK YOU.

>>> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE, I'M CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR IN LONDON.

TONIGHT, COLLIDING CRISES IN THE MIDDLE EAST.

HOW SHOULD THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION RESPOND TO THE KILLING OF THE FIRST AMERICANS IN THIS OCTOBER 7th WAR?

THREE ARE DEAD AND DOZENS INJURED AFTER THE U.S. SAYS AN IRAN-BACKED MILITIA CONDUCTED A DRONE ATTACK ON THEIR BASE, WHICH IS KNOWN AS TOWER 22 IN JORDAN.

HOW CAN THE UNITED STATES ALSO CONVINCE ISRAEL TO ENSURE FEWER CIVILIANS ARE KILLED IN GAZA?

WHERE PALESTINIAN HEALTH AUTHORITIES NOW SAY MORE THAN 26,000 ARE DEAD, 200 KILLED IN THE LAST 24 HOURS ALONE.

AND ISRAEL REPORTS HAMAS SENT A BARRAGE OF NEW ROCKET FIRE ITS WAY.

HOW WILL MORE DESPERATELY NEEDED HUMANITARIAN AID REACH GAZA, AS THE UNITED STATES AND ALMOST HALF THE DONORS SUSPEND FUNDING TO THE U.N. AGENCY THAT DOES THIS, AFTER ISRAEL SHARED INTELLIGENCE SHOWING 12 STAFF MEMBERS WERE ALLEGEDLY INVOLVED IN THE OCTOBER 7 ATTACKS ON ISRAEL.

DANIEL KURTZER WAS U.S.

AMBASSADOR TO CAIRO UNDER THE CLINTON ADMINISTRATION AND TEL AVIV FOR GEORGE W. BUSH.

HE'S JOINING US NOW FROM WASHINGTON, D.C.

AMBASSADOR KURTZER, HOW CONCERNED ARE YOU ABOUT THE KILLING OF THREE SERVICEMEN?

IT APPEARS THIS WAS INEVITABLE, THAT THIS WAS GOING TO HAPPEN AT SOME POINT.

>> WELL, IT'S NOT SURPRISING THAT OUR TROOPS THAT HAVE BEEN YEARS IN THE MIDDLE EAST HAVE SUFFERED CASUALTIES.

IT'S SAD, AND IT HAS PRESENTED WASHINGTON WITH A DILEMMA ABOUT WHEN AND HOW TO RESPOND.

CLEARLY, THE SITUATION IN GAZA HAS ENFLAMED TENSIONS, BUT THESE ATTACKS WERE GOING ON EVEN BEFORE THE WAR IN GAZA, AND THE OBJECTIVE, OF COURSE, HAS BEEN THAT IF WE'RE FIGHTING THE TERRORISTS THERE, WE'RE PREVENTING THEM FROM ORGANIZING AND ATTACKING ELSEWHERE, SO, MY GUESS IS THAT THE ADMINISTRATION WILL CALIBRATE ITS RESPONSE SO AS NOT TO WIDEN A WAR, BUT WILL CERTAINLY RESPOND IN A MANNER DESIGNED TO MAKE A CONVINCING ARGUMENT THAT THESE ATTACKS SHOULD TOP.

>> SO, AS YOU KNOW, THERE ARE, WHAT I WOULD CALL, THE USUAL SUSPECTS, HARDLINERS IN CONGRESS, AND THE REPUBLICAN PARTY, SAYING THAT THE ADMINISTRATION SHOULD HIT HARD ON IRAN ITSELF.

DO YOU THINK THAT IS PROPASSIONATE?

DO YOU THINK THAT IS WHAT THE ADMINISTRATION WILL DO?

AND IF IT DOES, WILL THAT INEVITABLY ESCALATE THIS?

>> WELL, IT'S OUT OF WHACK.

THIS IS AN ATTACK THAT'S BEEN STIMULATED BY THE AUTHORITIES IN IRAN, PROBABLY BY THE IRANIAN REVOLUTIONARY GUARDS, BUT TO HIT BACK AT IRAN SUGGESTS THAT WE WANT TO WIDEN A WAR.

AND THERE'S NOBODY, REALLY, WHO IS SERIOUS ABOUT WANTING TO WIDEN A WAR, SO, THAT'S WHY I THINK THE KEY WORD TO WATCH HERE IS THE CALIBRATED AND PROPORTIONAL RESPONSE.

WE CERTAINLY ARE GOING TO HIT AT TARGETS IN SYRIA, WHERE THE IRGC, THE IRANIAN REVOLUTIONARY GUARDS, HAVE ENSCONCED THEMSELVES, WHERE THE PERPETRATORS OF THIS ATTACK LAUNCHED THE DRONE, BUT I DON'T THINK THERE'S A CHANCE AT ALL THAT WE WILL TAKE THIS WAR TO IRAN PROPER.

>> I WANT TO ASK YOU ANOTHER QUESTION ON THIS, REGARDING THE URGING TO GO TO WAR AGAINST IRAN ITSELF.

A DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST, SIMON ROSENBURG, BASICALLY SAID ABOUT THE GOP, IF YOU ARE UNHAPPY WITH IRAN TODAY, FIRST THING YOU SHOULD DO IS COME OUT FOR FUNDING UKRAINE FULLY.

NOTHING WILL EMBOLDEN IRAN MORE THAN A RUSSIAN VICTORY IN EUROPE.

DO YOU AGREE WITH THAT?

>> WELL, I THINK IT'S RIGHT ON THE MARK.

YOU KNOW, THERE'S A LARGER GLOBAL BALANCE OF POWER THAT'S BEING TESTED NOW.

IRAN HAS THROWN ALL OF ITS WEIGHT, SOME OF ITS TECHNOLOGY, DRONE-MAKING CAPABILITY, BEHIND RUSSIA'S ATTACKS IN UKRAINE, AND THEREFORE, THERE'S AN URGENCY IN WASHINGTON TO ENSURE THAT WE CONTINUE SUPPORTING UKRAINE, AND THAT MAKES FOR A VERY DIFFICULT POLITICAL PROBLEM HERE, BECAUSE REPUBLICANS HAVE TIED FUNDING FOR UKRAINE AND FOR ISRAEL TO A BORDER DEAL, WHICH IS BEING NEGOTIATED.

SO, IT'S A VERY COMPLEX INTERSECTION OF FOREIGN AND DOMESTIC POLITICS, BUT I THINK THAT ROSENBURG'S EXACTLY RIGHT, THAT THE LAST THING WE WOULD WANT IS TO PULL BACK FROM UKRAINE OR TO WALK AWAY FROM THE MIDDLE EAST AND ALLOW BOTH RUSSIA AND IRAN TO SCORE A SUCCESS.

>> CAN I ASK YOU, BECAUSE, YOU KNOW, THE BIG NEWS OVER THE WEEKEND, OR JUST BEFORE THE WEEKEND, IS THAT DONALD TRUMP IS ACTUALLY PRESSURING HIS WHOLE MAGA GROUP, PRESSURING NOT JUST THE HOUSE, WHICH ALREADY DOESN'T WANT TO APPROVE THIS AID, THIS DEAL, BUT THE SENATE.

HE WANTS TO NOT HAVE A SOLUTION TO THE BORDER DEAL RIGHT NOW.

HE SAID IT HIMSELF, FRANKLY.

YOU KNOW, DO -- HOW TO CONVINCE HIS FOLLOWERS, OR, YOU KNOW, THE GOP, THOSE HAVE ACTUALLY BEEN ELECTED, THAT THIS IS PLAYING WITH AMERICAN NATIONAL SECURITY?

>> WELL, THE REPUBLICANS ARE BADLY DIVIDED PARTY, AND THEY CAN'T QUITE FIGURE OUT WHERE POLITICS ENDS AND NATIONAL INTEREST BEGINS.

YOU TAKE A LOOK AT SENATOR JAMES LANGFORD, A CONSERVATIVE THROUGH AND THROUGH, WHO BASICALLY TOLD FOX NEWS THE OTHER DAY THAT THIS IS A GOOD DEAL THAT'S BEING NEGOTIATED, AND IT'S A DEAL THAT DONALD TRUMP HIMSELF WAS ARGUING FOR WHEN HE WAS PRESIDENT.

SO, TRUMP HAS POLITICIZED A NATIONAL SECURITY ISSUE, AND HE'S POLITICIZED AN ISSUE THAT WOULD HAVE BEEN A VICTORY FOR HIM, HAD IT BEEN ACHIEVED DURING HIS PRESIDENCY, SO, WE HAVE A PROBLEM HERE, WHICH WE'VE HAD NOW FOR A NUMBER OF YEARS, WHERE POLITICS HAS INVADED EVERY ASPECT OF LIFE, INCLUDING ON THIS VERY IMPORTANT ISSUE OF HOW TO CONTROL OUR SOUTHERN BORDER.

>> LET ME JUST SWITCH NOW TO THE -- THE ISRAEL-GAZA WAR AGAINST HAMAS.

THE ALLEGATIONS AND THE INTELLIGENCE THAT ISRAEL APPARENTLY HAS SHARED SHOWING 12 MEMBERS OF UNRWA, THE U.N. WORKS AND RELIEF AGENCY THAT SPECIFICALLY DEALS WITH PALESTINIAN HISTORIC REFUGEES, HAS BEEN ACCUSED OF HAVING 12 OF ITS MEMBERS TAKE PART IN OCTOBER 7th.

NOW, THE U.N. SAYS THESE ARE VERY SERIOUS ALLEGATIONS, I BELIEVE THEY'VE FIRED THESE 12, AND INVESTIGATIONS GO ON.

LET ME ASK YOU FIRST, SHOULD THE UNITED STATES AND THE DONOR COMMUNITY SUSPEND FUNDING, WHICH AFFECTS THEN THE AID INTO THIS BELEAGUERED ENCLAVE RIGHT NOW?

>> WELL, I HOPE THE SUSPENSION OF FUNDING BY THE U.S. AND EIGHT OR NINE OTHER COUNTRIES IS A TEMPORARY ACTION, DESIGNED TO PUT PRESSURE ON THE U.N. ADMINISTRATION TO TAKE SOME SERIOUS STEPS TO REFORM UNRWA.

IF THE FUNDING SUSPENSION GOES ON FOR TOO LONG, IT WILL HAVE A VERY BAD IMPACT ON THE HUMANITARIAN SITUATION ON THE GROUND.

AND EVEN ISRAEL ADMITS UNRWA IS THE BEST POSITIONED U.N. AGENCY TO DELIVER THAT HUMANITARIAN ASSISTANCE.

SO, WE'RE IN A LITTLE BIT OF A PRESSURE TACTIC HERE TO GET THE U.N. TO WAKE UP TO WHAT FRANKLY EVERYONE HAS KNOWN IS A LONG-STANDING PROBLEM, WHERE HAMAS HAS INSERTED QUITE A FEW OF ITS ADVOCATES AND ADHERENCE INTO THE UNRWA BUREAUCRACY, AND NOW WE FIND OUT THAT SOME OF THEM ACTUALLY ENGAGED IN OCTOBER 7th MASSACRE, SO, AGAIN, I HOPE IT'S A SHORT-TERM PRESSURE POINT, AND THAT THE U.N. ACTS SWIFTLY TO TRY TO DEAL WITH IT, SO THAT THE FUNDING CAN BE RESUMED.

>> AND, OF COURSE, UNRWA POINTS OUT THAT THE ALLEGATIONS AMID A WORK FORCE OF 15,000.

NONETHELESS, THESE ARE, AS THEY SAY, VERY SERIOUS ALLEGATIONS, BUT AS YOU SAY, IT'S NOT UNRWA, THEN IT HAS TO BE ISRAEL.

THIS IS THE FAMOUS ISRAELI JOURNALIST WHO WROTE TODAY, "ISRAEL IS NOT ABOUT TO SUSPEND ITS TIES WITH UNRWA UNLESS THE ISRAEL DEFENSE FORCES DECIDE IT WANTS TO DISTRIBUTE THE FOOD, WATER, AND MEDICAL SUPPLIES TO OVER 2 MILLION PALESTINIANS IN GAZA.

IT NEEDS UNRWA TO DO IT.

IT'S JUST A MATTER OF TIME BEFORE THOSE WESTERN GOVERNMENTS RESTORE FUNDING."

I THINK YOU AGREE WITH THAT, BUT IT DOES GO TO THE FACT THAT THE SUSPENSION IS PROBABLY TEMPORARY, BUT THE FACT OF THE MATTER IS THAT THERE IS AN ONGOING, I MEAN, MAJOR CONFLICT BETWEEN ISRAEL AND THE U.N.

IN GENERAL.

>> YOU KNOW, I SPOKE TO A SENIOR ISRAELI OFFICIAL THE OTHER DAY WHO REALLY SPOKE OUT OF BOTH ENDS OF THIS, TO BOTH ENDS OF THIS ISSUE.

ON THE ONE HAND, ISRAEL HAS KNOWN FOR QUITE SOME TIME THAT UNRWA IS A VERY FAULTED ORGANIZATION.

THEIR EDUCATIONAL SYSTEM PREACHES HATRED AND INCITEMENT.

IT HAS BEEN INFILTRATED BY VERY RABID OPPONENTS OF ISRAEL.

ON THE OTHER HAND, IT IS THE MOST EFFECTIVE DELIVERER OF EDUCATION AND SOCIAL AFFAIRS AND FOOD AID AND SO FORTH ON THE GROUND.

AND THE ARGUMENT THAT THIS PERSON MADE WAS THAT THERE WILL BE A RECKONING SOME DAY, BUT THAT IT CAN'T TAKE PLACE NOW, BECAUSE THE HUMANITARIAN NEEDS ON THE GROUND ARE TOO SEVERE, SO, I THINK THAT'S EXACTLY RIGHT.

AND THE U.N.

OUGHT TO ACT SWIFTLY TO DEAL WITH THIS, SO THAT WE CAN GET BACK TO A -- A SITUATION WHICH UNRWA CAN DELIVER AID THE WAY IT HAS UNTIL NOW.

>> OF COURSE, THE END GAME THAT MOST WOULD LIKE TO SEE, AND I ASSUME YOU'RE IN THIS CAMP, AS WELL, IS AN END TO OCCUPATION AND SOME KIND OF STATEHOOD FOR THE PALESTINIANS, WHICH IS WHAT THE UNITED STATES BACKS, FRANKLY.

SO, I WANT TO ASK YOU THIS, BECAUSE THERE SEEMS TO BE A LOT OF PROBLEMS AND DIVISIONS WITHIN ISRAEL AND CERTAINLY THE WAR CABINET OVER THE LACK OF A STATED END GAME, OR A PLAN FOR AFTERWARDS, AND TO THAT END, YOU KNOW, THE -- THERE'S BEEN -- AS DESCRIBED, THERE WAS A RALLY IN JERUSALEM OF GOVERNMENT MINISTERS AND KNESSET MEMBERS, CALLING FOR THE RESETTLEMENT OF GAZA, DESPITE, AS WE KNOW, WARNINGS FROM THE UNITED STATES, THE TOP U.N. COURT.

THIS IS WHAT THE NATIONAL SECURITY GUY SAID AT THE EVENT.

>> Translator: PART OF CORRECTING THE MISTAKE OF THE RECOGNITION OF THE MISTAKE IN CONCEPTION THAT BROUGHT UPON US THE SEVENTH OF OCTOBER AND BROUGHT UPON US THE DEPORTATION IS TO RETURN BACK HOME.

>> SO, AMBASSADOR, WHO IS IN CHARGE?

BECAUSE, YOU KNOW, TO HIS INTERNATIONAL AUDIENCE, THE PRIME MINISTER SAYS, NO, THAT'S NOT OUR AIM.

BUT WHAT'S HAPPENING, YOU KNOW, WITH HIS ALLIES, WHAT'S HAPPENING WHEN HE SPEAKS TO PEOPLE IN THEIR OWN LANGUAGE, IN HEBREW?

>> WELL, CLEARLY, PRIME MINISTER NETANYAHU IS SO INTENT UPON REMAINING IN POWER, IN ORDER TO AVOID THE VARIOUS CORRUPTION CHARGES WHICH HAVE FOUND THEIR WAY INTO COURT, THAT HE IS ALLOWING THE MOST RABID, RACIST, INCITEMENT ON THE PART OF HIS OWN GOVERNMENT, I THINK THERE WAS 11 OR 12 MINISTERS WHO ATTENDED THAT CONFERENCE AND CALLED NOT ONLY FOR THE RESETTLEMENT OF GAZA BY ISRAEL, BUT BASICALLY SAID THAT THAT MEANS THE DEPOPULATION OF THE PALESTINIANS IN GAZA.

SO, NETANYAHU'S CLEARLY NOT IN CHARGE, IT SHOWS IN THE POLLS.

THE LATEST POLLS SHOW HE HAS SOMEWHERE LESS THAN 20% SUPPORT REMAINING IN POWER.

MOST OF THE RETIRED NATIONAL SECURITY COMMUNITY IN ISRAEL WANTS HIM OUT.

BUT HE'S HANGING ON, AND THAT PUTS A LITTLE BIT OF PRESSURE ON WASHINGTON, ON THE PRESIDENT, TO BACK UP HIS WORDS THAT HE SHARED WITH NETANYAHU WITH SOME ACTIONS, TO SEE WHETHER OR NOT WE CAN CHANGE -- SEE CHANGE IN ISRAELI POLICY.

>> VERY, VERY QUICKLY, FINALLY, THE WHITE HOUSE HAS SAID, THE SPOKESPEOPLE, THAT THEY'RE VERY TROUBLED ABOUT THOSE KINDS OF STATEMENTS, THAT THEY OPPOSE AND REOCCUPATION OF GAZA.

BUT THE FLIP SIDE, HOW MUCH PRESSURE IS THIS PUTTING ON BIDEN, THIS WHOLE WAR, FOR INSTANCE, WITH VOTERS?

WE'RE IN AN ELECTION YEAR RIGHT NOW, YOUNG PEOPLE, ARAB AMERICANS, THERE'S A WHOLE CONSTITUENCY WHO DOESN'T LIKE HIS STANCE IN THIS WAR.

>> WELL, CLEARLY, THERE ARE AT LEAST TWO GROUPS THAT ARE TROUBLED.

ONE ARE ARAB AMERICANS GENERALLY, AND THE OTHER ARE YOUNG PEOPLE UNDER THE AGE OF 35.

WE NOW HAVE SEEN A GROUP OF BLACK RELIGIOUS LEADERS WHO ARE UPSET ABOUT THE ABSENCE OF A CEASE-FIRE AND SO AT SOME POINT, THE WHITE HOUSE IS GOING TO HAVE TO PIVOT TO TEAL WITH THE POLITICAL BACKLASH, BUT I THINK THE PRESIDENT HOPES THE WAR WILL WIND DOWN TO A POINT TO REFOCUS THE CAMPAIGN ON ISSUES SUCH AS REPRODUCTIVE RIGHTS AND SO FORTH.

>> AMBASSADOR, THANK YOU VERY MUCH.

AND TO THAT POINT, THERE HAVE BEEN NEGOTIATIONS OVER VARIOUS SOLUTIONS TO TRY TO GET THE HOSTAGES FREED, BUT AS YET, THEY HAVE NOT COME TO FRUITION.

>>> NOW, FROM THE MIDDLE EAST TO EAST ASIA, THE SABRES ARE TRULY RATTLING.

EARLIER THIS MONTH, NORTH KOREA'S LEADER KIM JONG-UN TESTED A NEW BALLISTIC MISSILE LAUNCHED SEVERAL CRUISE MISSILES AND CLAIMED THE SUCCESSFUL TEST OF AN UNDERWATER NUCLEAR WEAPONS SYSTEM.

ONCE FOCUSED ON A REUNIFIED PENINSULA, KIM JONG-UN IS NOW CALLING THE SOUTH HIS PRIMARY FOE AND ENEMY.

THOSE ARE HIS WORDS.

EVEN TEARING DOWN, QUOTE, THE ARCH OF REUNIFICATION, A SYMBOL OF HOPE FOR THE PENINSULA.

EARLIER, I SPOKE TO SOUTH KOREA'S FORMER FOREIGN MINISTER KANG KYUNG-WHA, WHO TOLD ME THAT TO PREVENT CONFLICT THERE, THERE NEEDS TO BE MEANINGFUL ENGAGEMENT.

NOT JUST SHOW SUMMITS, LIKE THE ONE LED BY PRESIDENT TRUMP IN HANOI IN 2019, WHICH SHE CALLED A DEBACLE.

KANG KYUNG-WHA IS NOW THE INCOMING HEAD OF THE ASIA SOCIETY IN NEW YORK, AND SHE JOINED ME FROM SEOUL.

FOREIGN MINISTER KANG KYUNG-WHA, WELCOME BACK TO OUR PROGRAM.

>> THANK YOU, CHRISTIANE.

IT'S WONDERFUL TO BE BACK WITH YOU, THOUGH IN A DIFFERENT CAPACITY FROM MY PREVIOUS JOB.

>> SO, I'M GOING TO TALK TO YOU AS FOREIGN MINISTER, FRANKLY, FOR A MOMENT, BECAUSE YOU'RE STILL IN SEOUL, BEFORE YOU TAKE UP YOUR POSITION IN NEW YORK.

ARE YOU MORE AND MORE WORRIED, LIKE EVERYBODY APPEARS TO BE, ABOUT YOUR NORTHERN NEIGHBOR?

KIM JONG-UN, HEAD OF NORTH KOREA, HAS DONE A WHOLE LOAD OF MUCH MORE PROVOCATIVE THINGS RECENTLY, AND HAS SAID THAT ONE WAY OR ANOTHER, YOU KNOW, ONE WAY OR ANOTHER, THERE WILL BE REUNIFICATION, EVEN IF IT'S NOT PEACEFUL.

DO YOU THINK THAT HE'S ON A PATH TO WAR?

>> WELL, IT CERTAINLY FEELS THAT WAY, BUT HE ALWAYS TEMPERS THAT HAWKISH STATEMENT WITH MODERATION, SO, FOR EXAMPLE, I THINK AFTER HE SAYS ALL THESE THINGS FILLED WITH HOSTILITY, SAYS, UNLESS SOMEBODY TOUCHES US FIRST, WE'RE NOT GOING TO TOUCH THEM.

THE EXERCISES ARE NOT DESIGNED TO HARM ANYBODY, ANY COUNTRIES AROUND, SO, YOU SEE A BIT OF -- AN ATTEMPT TO CONTROL THE LEVEL OF THE HOSTILE RHETORIC.

IT IS STILL CONCERNING, OF COURSE, BUT THIS HEIGHTENED RHETORIC PLUS THE TESTING OF THE MISSILES, THIS IS A CONTINUATION OF A PATTERN THAT BEGAN AFTER THEEBACLE OF THE 2019 SUMMIT BETWEEN THE UNITED STATES AND NORTH KOREA.

AFTER THAT, THEY IMMEDIATELY WENT BACK TO LAUNCHING THE MISSILES, AND THAT HAS PICKED UP SPEED, MORE FREQUENCY IN THE RECENT YEARS, AND THEN, YOU KNOW, THE RHETORICAL HOSTILITY THAT GOES WITH IT IS, OF COURSE, MORE RECENT.

>> OKAY.

I WANT TO PICK UP ON WHAT YOU JUST SAID ABOUT THE HANOI SUMMIT.

I WAS THERE IN 2019 WHEN PRESIDENT TRUMP MET WITH KIM JONG-UN, AND, OF COURSE, IT WAS ALL MEANT TO BE ROSE SI.

BUT YOU'RE SAYING, ACTUALLY, WHAT TRUMP DID DIDN'T AMOUNT TO MUCH.

THERE WAS NO RACHETING DOWN OF TENSIONS.

>> WELL, I THINK -- I THINK WHAT CAME OUT OF THAT -- WHAT DIDN'T COME OUT OF THAT SUMMIT IS, YOU KNOW, AND HINDSIGHT IS A VERY MISSED OPPORTUNITY.

AN OPPORTUNITY THAT COULD HAVE -- THE LIFE OF THAT OPPORTUNITY SHOULD HAVE BEEN KEPT, EVEN IF THEY DIDN'T HAVE AN AGREEMENT THERE, I THINK SOMEHOW, A WAY TO CONTINUE THE DISCUSSION, TO KEEP NORTH KOREA ENGAGED, WOULD HAVE BEEN EXTREMELY IMPORTANT, AND, FRANKLY, WE WOULD NOT BE IN THIS SITUATION.

BUT I THINK, YOU KNOW, THE -- THE FAILURE, I THINK, I EXPLAINED IT, THE PRESIDENT HAS TREMENDOUS DESIRE, INTENTION TO DO SOMETHING, BUT THERE WAS VERY LITTLE BACKUP AT THE WORKING LEVEL, AND THIS IS, YOU KNOW, THIS IS -- THIS IS THE TYPICAL TRUMP LEADERSHIP ON THESE ISSUES.

WILL, BUT VERY LITTLE FOLLOWUP AND SUPPORT FROM THE WORKING LEVEL.

SO, THAT'S A HUGE LESSON, WHEN WE EVER GO BACK TO A PHASE OF ENGAGEMENT WITH NORTH KOREA.

>> AND POTENTIALLY A HUGE LESSON FOR HOW YOU WOULD DEAL WITH THE POTENTIAL EVENTUALLY OF HIM RETURNING AS PRESIDENT.

WHAT DO YOU THINK A SECOND TRUMP PRESIDENCY MEANS FOR, YOU KNOW, THEPENINSULA, BUT FOR U.S./ASIA RELATIONS?

>> WELL, THAT IS THE BIG QUESTION ON EVERYBODY'S MIND AROUND THE WORLD THESE DAYS, I BELIEVE, AND THAT IS THE CONSEQUENCE FOR THE WORLD, FRANKLY.

SO, WE'RE ALL HAVING, YOU KNOW, CONTINGENCIES, THINKING IN OUR MIND, BUT YOU KNOW, AS FOREIGN MINISTER, AND AS ASIA SOCIETY PRESIDENT, I WOULD NOT COMMENT ON HOW THE ELECTION IS UNFOLDING, BUT WE WILL DEAL WITH THE RESULTS.

WE WILL RESPECT THE WILL OF THE AMERICAN VOTERS AS THE AS A RESULT OF THE ELECTIONS.

>> YEAH, THAT'S ALL WELL AND GOOD, BUT YOU'VE BASICALLY JUST TOLD ME THAT THERE WAS NO FOLLOWUP, I CAN READ YOU THE LIST OF THINGS THAT HAVE HAPPENED SINCE THAT SUMMIT WITH TRUMP.

SEVERAL MISSILES YOUR COUNTRY HAS REPORTED THEM BEING FIRED AT YOU, TESTING A NEW STRATEGIC SOLID FUEL INTERMEDIATE RANGE, WHICH COULD BE NUCLEAR ARMED.

EARLIER THIS MONTH, TONS OF ARTILLERY SHELLS INTO WATERS NEAR YOU, ON TOP OF ALL THAT, IT IS NOW BECOMING THE PRINCIPLE, OR, A PRINCIPLE ARMER OF RUSSIA, AND JOINING UP WITH IRAN TO -- TO, YOU KNOW, SO -- >> YES.

>> WAS IT ALL FOR SHOW?

>> I THINK THERE'S -- CERTAIN CALCULATIONS ON THE PART OF THE NORTH KOREANS, AND CERTAINLY THE BIG PLAYERS.

THE CLOSE COLLABORATION BETWEEN RUSSIA AND NORTH KOREA ON THE MILITARY FRONT, NORTH KOREA'S MISSILES AND ARTILLERY SHELLS IS GOING TO THE UKRAINE BATTLEFIELD, IS A CONCERN NOT JUST FOR US HERE ON THE KOREAN PENINSULA, BUT ALSO IN EUROPE.

AND GLAD THAT MR. SULLIVAN EXPRESSED THAT CONCERN TO THE CHINESE IN BANGKOK, VERY EXPLICITLY, AND REQUESTED, CALLED FOR CHINA'S INTERVENTION, CHINA'S PRESSURE ON THE NORTH KOREANS TO DO SOMETHING ABOUT THIS.

WHAT CHINA DOES ABOUT IT, WE'LL HAVE TO SEE, BUT IT'S A GLOBAL CONCERN.

BUT I THINK IT'S RIGHT THAT THE MEDIA HAS NOW RETURNED ITS FOCUS ON NORTH KOREA'S BEHAVIOR, BUT WE ALSO NEED TO CALCULATE, YES, WE HAVE TO RESPOND WITH A VERY SOLID DEFENSE POSTURE, FOR SURE, SO THAT WE'RE PREPARED FOR ANY PROVOCATIONS, BUT -- AND WE MUST DO IT WITH OVERWHELMING FORCE SO THAT IT'S -- ONE ROUND FINISHES THE PROVOCATION AND DOESN'T ESCALATE INTO FURTHER ROUNDS, BECAUSE IF WE GET INTO THAT STAGE, IT BECOMES REALLY, REALLY DIFFICULT.

AND I DON'T THINK ANYBODY AT THIS TIME IN THE WORLD WOULD LIKE TO SEE ANOTHER FLASHPOINT GETTING OUT OF CONTROL, AND THERE'S A LOT OF POTENTIAL FOR THAT ON THE KOREAN PENINSULA, SO, I THINK ALL COOL HEADS MUST TRY TO MANAGE THE SITUATION TO LOWER THE TENSIONS.

>> KIM JONG-UN HAS DECLARED UNIFICATION NO LONGER POSSIBLE WITH THE SOUTH.

HIS GOVERNMENT IS ORDERED THE MONUMENT TO REUNIFICATION TO BE TORN DOWN.

YOU HAVE SPOKEN ABOUT MAYBE YOU HAVE TO LISTEN TO EVERY WORD HE SAYS, BUT NONETHELESS, THIS IS HAPPENING.

NOW, I WANT TO ASK YOU, BECAUSE YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT HEIGHTENED TENSIONS, TRUMP HAS ALSO SAID THAT IF HE RETURNS, HE IS GOING TO SLAP A 60% TARIFF ON ALL GOODS FROM CHINA.

DOES THREATENING TO SLAP A 60% TRADE TARIFF ON CHINA HURT OR HINDER STABILITY?

>> I THINK DEFINITELY IT WORKS AGAINST STABILITY, BECAUSE I -- WHEN WE WERE WORKING ON THE NORTH KOREA FILE AND THE GEOPOLITICS OF NORTHEAST ASIA, THE, YOU KNOW, THE HEIGHTENING TENSION ON THE TRADE ISSUE BETWEEN THE UNITED STATES AND CHINA, ON THE ONE HAND, AND THEN WE WERE COLLABORATING WITH THE CHINESE ON THE NORTH KOREA ON THE OTHER HAND.

AND I COULD CLEARLY FEEL THAT THE CHINESE COLLABORATION ON THE NORTH KOREA FILE WAS WEAKENING AS THE TENSION WITH THE UNITED STATES ON THE TRADE SIDE AND OTHER ISSUE WAS INCREASING.

SO, THE UNITED STATES WAS TRYING TO DO TWO THINGS THAT WAS PULLING THEM IN DIFFERENT DIRECTIONS.

SO, I THINK THIS IDEA OF ACROSS THE BOARD TARIFF, YOU KNOW, A HUGE TRADE PUNISHMENT, IF IT EVER COMES ABOUT, YOU KNOW, I WOULD BE VERY CONCERNED IF THAT WAS REALLY TO MATERIALIZE.

>> FOREIGN MINISTER, YOU ARE, AS WE SAID, ABOUT TO TAKE UP YOUR POSITION AS THE NEW PRESIDENT AND CEO OF THE ASIA SOCIETY, THAT WILL BE IN NEW YORK, AND THAT'S HAPPENING EARLY APRIL.

WHAT INSPIRED YOU TO TAKE ON THIS NEW POSITION?

WHAT DO YOU HOPE TO BE ABLE TO ACCOMPLISH, YOU KNOW, OUT OF OFFICE, NOT WANTING TO INTERFERE IN OTHERS, YOU KNOW, POLICY, AS YOU JUST SAID, BUT WHAT DO YOU WANT TO ACCOMPLISH, SINCE WE'VE OUTLINED JUST NOW A COUPLE OF VERY SERIOUS THREATS IN THE ASIA REGION?

>> WELL, ASIAN SOCIETY IS A VERY UNIQUE OUTFIT.

IT'S NOT GOVERNMENT, IT'S NOT THE UNITED NATIONS.

IT'S A NONPROFIT, NONGOVERNMENTAL ORGANIZATION WITH A UNIQUE SET OF TOOLS.

IT'S NOT JUST POLICY, DIALOGUE PLATFORM, BUT ALSO VERY STRONG TRADITIONALLY CULTURE AND EDUCATION EXCHANGE AND -- CULTURE AND ARTS EXCHANGE AND EDUCATION.

CHRISTIANE, YOU WERE THERE WHEN THE NEW YORK PHILHARMONIC VISITED NORTH KOREA, SPONSORED BY ASIA SOCIETY.

THAT WAS AGES AGO.

I'M NOT SURE WE COULD PULL OFF SOMETHING LIKE THAT AGAIN IN THESE DAYS, BUT THAT'S THE UNIQUENESS OF ASIA SOCIETY.

WE HAVE THESE TOOLS, I BELIEVE WE ARE A TRUSTED PARTNER FROM MANY KEY PLAYERS, AND WE CAN WORK BOTH OPENLY, BUT ALSO UNDER THE RADAR.

>> WELL, YOU MENTIONED THAT PHILHARMONIC MUSICAL INTERLUDE THERE WITH THAT MUSICAL DIPLOMACY, AND I WOULD BE VERY, VERY HAPPY TO KEEP REPORTING, IF EVER SUCH A BRIDGE COULD BE, YOU KNOW, CREATED AGAIN, I'D BE VERY HAPPY TO DO THAT.

YOU HAVE A HUGE CHALLENGE ON YOUR HANDS.

FOREIGN MINISTER, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR BEING WITH US.

>> THANK YOU, CHRISTIANE.

>>> AND NEXT, TO BANGLADESH, WHERE 76-YEAR-OLD PRIME MINISTER WON A FIFTH TERM THIS MONTH.

SHE'S CREDITED WITH SHORING UP THE ECONOMY AND BALANCING RELATIONS WITH ITS GIANT NEIGHBORS, INDIA AND CHINA.

BUT THE UNITED STATES SAYS THOSE ELECTIONS WERE NOT FREE AND FAIR.

AND NOW, EVEN ONE OF THE NATION'S MOST LAUDED SONS HAS BEEN TARGETED.

NOBEL PEACE PRIZE WINNER MUHAMMAD YUNUS.

HE IS ACKNOWLEDGED FOR PIONEERING MICROLOANS, WHICH ARE CREDITED WITH HELPING MILLIONS OF WOMEN LEAD THEIR FAMILIES AT OF POVERTY.

BUT THIS MONTH, HE WAS SENTENCED TO SIX MONTHS IN PRISON OVER ALLEGATIONS OF VIOLATING LABOR LAWS.

HE'S CURRENTLY OUT ON BAIL WHILE HE APPEALS THE SENTENCE.

HIS FAMILY AND ALLIES CALL THE WHOLE THING A TRUMPED UP POLITICAL TRIAL, A CLAIM THE GOVERNMENT DENIES.

I SPOKE TO HIS OPERA STAR DAUGHTER, MONICA YUNUS, WHO IS CAMPAIGNING TO KEEP HER FATHER OUT OF JAIL.

MONICA YUNUS, WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.

>> YOUR FATHER IS VERY WELL-KNOWN TO THE WHOLE WORLD, YOU KNOW, THE WHOLE NOBEL LAUREATE COMMUNITY HAVE SIGNED A LETTER CALLING FOR AN END TO WHAT THEY CALL JUDICIAL HARASSMENT AGAINST HIM AND FOR HIS RELEASE, AND NOT -- NOT TO GO TO JAIL.

YOU'RE SITTING HERE IN FRONT OF ME LOBBYING FOR HIM.

ARE YOU WORRIED?

ARE YOU -- WHAT DO YOU THINK IT MEANS FOR YOU TO SPEAK OUT NOW?

>> I THINK IT'S IMPERATIVE FOR ME TO SPEAK OUT, TO JOIN THE CHORUS OF THE MANY, MANY LUMINARIES WHO HAVE SIGNED THIS LETTER IN SUPPORT OF HIM.

THESE CHARGES AGAINST HIM AND THOSE OF HIS COLLEAGUES ARE ABSOLUTELY FALSE, AND IT'S IMPORTANT FOR ME TO SPEAK OUT AGAINST THEM.

>> SO WHAT ARE THE CHARGES?

>> SO, THE CHARGES ARE REALLY CIVIL IN NATURE.

IT'S AN EMPLOYMENT ISSUE, SOMETHING THAT WOULD BE DEALT WITH IN CIVIL COURT.

IT'S BEEN CRIMINALIZED.

THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NO SENSE TO THEM.

>> ARE THEY REAL CHARGES?

>> THEY'RE REAL CHARGES AND THEY CARRY A PRISON SENTENCE.

>> BUT ARE THEY JUSTIFIED, THE CIVIL CHARGES?

>> NO, ABSOLUTELY NOT.

HE AND HIS COLLEAGUES ARE 100% INNOCENT.

YOU KNOW, YOU DON'T HAVE TO TAKE HIS DAUGHTER'S WORD FOR IT.

THERE ARE INTERNATIONAL LAWYERS WHO HAVE LOOKED AT IT, THIS IS ABSOLUTELY FALSE.

>> WHAT NOW DO YOU EXPECT TO HAPPEN FROM THE BANGLADESHI GOVERNMENT POINT OF VIEW?

BECAUSE THIS IS A LETTER ADDRESSED TO THE PRIME MINISTER.

>> YES.

>> SHE'S NOW IN HER FIFTH TERM, JUST A FEW WEEKS AGO, WON YET ANOTHER TERM, I THINK SHE RAN UNOPPOSED.

WHAT DO YOU EXPECT FROM HER NOW?

>> WELL, MY FONDEST WISH IS FOR ALL THE CHARGES TO BE DROPPED.

NOT JUST FOR MY FATHER, BUT FOR HIS COLLEAGUES.

THIS IS ABSOLUTELY FALSE.

AND, YOU KNOW, I WOULD LOVE FOR IF OFFER THAT SHE MADE, SHE TOLD REPORTERS THAT SHE WOULD BRING IN INTERNATIONAL LAWYERS, SHE WOULD WELCOME INTERNATIONAL LAWYERS AND EXPERTS TO COME IN AND EVALUATE THE SITUATION, AND I FEEL 100% CONFIDENT THAT ALL OF THIS WOULD BE ABSOLUTELY ERASED IF THAT HAPPENED, BECAUSE THERE IS NO GUILT.

>> SHE'S CALLED YOUR FATHER A BLOOD SUCKER OF THE POOR, ONCE SHE APPARENTLY SENT SOMEONE OUT TO TEACH HIM A LESSON.

IT'S REPORTED THAT ALL OF THIS IS BECAUSE SHE BELIEVED THAT HE WAS BECOMING A POLITICAL THREAT TO HER, THAT HE WANTED TO, YOU KNOW, START A POLITICAL PARTY.

>> HE'S NOT A POLITICIAN.

I THINK HE THOUGHT ABOUT IT FOR A MOMENT AFTER HE HAD RECEIVED THE NOBEL PEACE PRIZE.

I THINK HE WAS A PARTY OF ONE.

HE HAS NO POLITICAL ASPIRATIONS.

IT'S SOMETHING THAT, YOU KNOW, WE'VE TALKED ABOUT, AND THIS KEEPS COMING UP, BUT IT HAS NO VALIDITY.

>> SO, WHAT DO YOU THINK IT REALLY IS THEN?

>> I WISH I KNEW.

I REALLY DO.

I THINK AT ONE POINT, THEY WORKED WELL TOGETHER, AND MY WISH IS THAT THAT COULD COME BACK.

NOT ONLY FOR THE BENEFIT OF ALL THE ORGANIZATIONS -- >> THE BANK HE FOUNDED.

>> EXACTLY.

>> MEANING VILLAGE BANK, THAT IS SO MUCH ABOUT MICROCREDIT AND EMPOWERING POOREST, THE POOREST OF THE POOR, SPECIFICALLY POOR WOMEN, I THINK THAT IF THAT OPPORTUNITY TO WORK TOGETHER AGAIN, THAT WOULD BE WONDERFUL.

THERE'S SO MUCH IN CIVIL SOCIETY IN BANGLADESH, THERE ARE SO MANY PEOPLE WORKING TO KEEP BANGLADESH AT THE HIGHEST LEVEL OF SORT OF THE -- A BEACON OF ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT.

THAT'S WHAT COULD BE FOCUSED ON.

THAT'S WHAT SHOULD BE FOCUSED ON.

I WAS BORN IN BANGLADESH.

I'VE BEEN TO BANGLADESH.

THE CREATIVITY, THE INNOVATION, IT'S WHY PEOPLE KEEP GOING BACK, BECAUSE THEY'RE CHARMED BY ALL OF THE INNOVATION THAT CAN COME OUT OF THAT.

AND THAT IS A TESTAMENT TO THE COUNTRY, AND TO THE FLOURISHING CIVIL SOCIETY.

>> SO, REMIND PEOPLE, BECAUSE IT WAS, I THINK, YOUR FATHER ESSENTIALLY, WHO MADE THE IDEA OF MICROCREDIT, MICROLOANS, KNOWN AROUND THE WORLD, FASHIONABLE IN THE AID COMMUNITY.

>> YEAH, HE WON THE NOBEL PEACE PRIZE IN 2006 ALONGSIDE THE BANK HE CREATED, VILLAGE BANK, WHICH FOCUSES ON EVERYTHING THAT A TRADITIONAL BANK DOESN'T.

SO, IF, IN A TRADITIONAL BANK, YOU GIVE LOANS TO PEOPLE WITH COLLATERAL, IN THIS BANK, YOU GIVE LOANS -- SMALL LOANS FOR INCOME GENERATING ACTIVITIES TO -- >> TO WOMEN.

>> THE POOREST OF THE POOR, FOCUSING ON WOMEN.

>> AND IT IS MOSTLY WOMEN.

>> IT IS MOSTLY WOMEN.

>> SO, YEAH, I WANT TO JUST PUT IT IN YOUR FATHER'S WORDS, HERE'S A CLIP FROM -- HE WAS TALKING ALMOST 20 YEARS AGO NOW, ABOUT THE WAY THE BANK HAS CHANGED LIVES.

>> BUT THE CHILDREN ARE SEEING A VERY DIFFERENT WORLD AROUND THEM.

THEY SEE THEIR MOTHER WORKING, AND THEY'RE BEING SENT TO SCHOOL, BECAUSE EVERY MOTHER WANTS TO SEND THEIR CHILDREN TO SCHOOL.

AND THEY CAN SAFELY SAY, 100% OF THE CHILDREN FROM THESE BANKS ARE IN SCHOOLS.

>> YOU'RE SMILING.

>> THAT'S 20 YEARS AGO, SO, THOSE CHILDREN HAVE GROWN UP AND THEY'VE COME TO MY FATHER AND SAID, OKAY, GREAT, I HAD THIS WONDERFUL EDUCATION, WHAT NOW?

MY MOTHER DID ALL OF THIS, HOW CAN I BECOME, YOU KNOW, HOW CAN I DO EVEN BETTER?

SO, THEY GO FOR HIGHER EDUCATION.

THERE'S A HIGHER EDUCATION LOAN.

THEY GO BECOME DOCTORS.

THIS WAS -- THIS WAS IMPOSSIBLE 20, 30 YEARS AGO.

>> SO, HE HAD A VERY TECHNICRATIC WAY OF FIGURING OUT PROPER FINANCIAL -- IT WASN'T JUST THROWING MONEY AT PEOPLE.

>> NOT ALL.

>> TELL ME WHAT THE FIGURES WERE FOR REPAYMENT AND WHY IT WAS THE WOMEN THAT GOT THE CREDIT, NOT THEIR HUSBANDS.

>> SO, AT THE VERY BEGINNING, THERE WERE LOANS GIVEN TO MEN AND WHAT THEY FOUND IS THAT MEN DID NOT SPEND THE MONEY ON THE FAMILY.

THEY DID NOT SPEND IT ON THE WOMEN AND THE FAMILY.

SO, THEY BEGAN TO REALLY FOCUS THEIR ATTENTION ON WOMEN.

THERE IS A VERY HIGH REPAYMENT RATE, SOMETHING LIKE 98%.

WOMEN REPAY.

WOMEN PAY BACK.

THEY TAKE OUT LARGER LOANS, THEY MAKE A LARGER BUSINESS.

THEY START TO -- WHAT THEY'VE SEEN, THEY START TO RUN FOR SMALL OFFICES AROUND IN THEIR VILLAGES.

YOU KNOW -- >> POLITICAL.

>> POLITICAL OFFICE, EXACTLY.

SO, THERE'S -- >> THE SCHOOL BOARD OR THE CITY COUNCIL.

>> THEY GET INVOLVED, BECAUSE THEY BECOME EMPOWERED BY THIS.

>> WHAT DO YOU MAKE OF SOME CRITICISM THAT'S STARTED TO EMERGE THAT MICROCREDIT HAS, YOU KNOW, DEVELOPED INTO, YOU KNOW, PUTTING WOMEN INTO DEBT, THAT THEY THEN SPEND A LIFETIME TRYING TO REPAY?

>> I'M NOT AN EXPERT, BUT TO ME, IT'S VERY SIMPLE.

IF YOU DON'T USE THE MODEL THAT HAS BEEN SET AND THERE'S A VERY SPECIFIC MODEL, IT CAN FAIL, OF COURSE, IT'S JUST LIKE EVERYTHING.

IF IT DOESN'T FOLLOW A CERTAIN SET OF RULES, IT'S NOT GOING TO WORK AS WELL.

I THINK THE CRITICISM IS PROBABLY FROM PEOPLE WHO DIDN'T NECESSARILY FOLLOW THE STRUCTURE THAT, YOU KNOW, THAT THE BANK SET OUT.

>> WHY IS HE BEING PERSECUTED?

AND AGAIN, LOOKING AT YOU, LOOKING AT THAT PICTURE, YOU CAN SEE THAT YOUR DAD, YOU KNOW, 20 YEARS AGO, YOUNG, VIGOROUS, TOP OF HIS -- >> HE STILL IS.

>> OKAY.

HE'S 83 NOW.

>> HE'S 83 YEARS YOUNG.

>> HE REFUSES TO LEAVE BANGLADESH.

>> CORRECT.

>> WHY IS HE BEING PERSECUTED?

>> I WISH I KNEW THE ANSWER TO THAT.

>> WHY DO YOU THINK?

>> YOU KNOW, HE'S WORKED WITH THIS GOVERNMENT.

AND I THINK THAT IT'S AN OPPORTUNITY TO WORK TOGETHER AGAIN, INSTEAD OF WASTING TIME IN THESE FRIVOLOUS, EGREGIOUS CASES AGAINST HIM AND THE KIND OF HARASSMENT THAT'S PERSISTED FOR OVER TEN YEARS.

>> DO YOU THINK HE'S GOING TO BEAT THIS WRAP, SO TO SPEAK?

>> I HOPE SO.

I DON'T RELISH THE IDEA OF MY 83-YEAR-OLD FATHER, WHO IS VERY HEALTHY AND STRONG, AND, YOU KNOW, BUT -- THE IDEA OF HIM GOING TO JAIL IS NOT -- >> SIX MONTHS, IS THAT CORRECT?

>> YES.

>> AS I MENTIONED, THE PRIME MINISTER HAS BEEN IN OFFICE NOW, YOU KNOW, FIVE TERMS.

SHE WAS ONCE IN THE LATE '90s, THEN SHE'S ENTERED HER FOURTH CONSECUTIVE TERM.

OPPOSITION PARTY SAYS 2.5 MILLION, AND THAT'S A HUGE NUMBER OF PEOPLE, OF ITS MEMBERS, ARE CURRENTLY FACING POLITICAL CHARGES.

AS AN AMERICAN CITIZEN, WHAT DO YOU MAKE OF ALL OF THIS?

>> WELL, I CAN SAY THAT IT'S VERY CONCERNING THAT ALL OTHER POLITICAL PARTIES BOYCOTTED THIS ELECTION.

YOU KNOW, WHAT DOES THAT SAY ABOUT DEMOCRACY WHEN THERE'S ONE PERSON RUNNING?

AND AGAIN, FROM MY PERSPECTIVE, AMNESTY INTERNATIONAL IS WEIGHING IN, THE INTERNATIONAL BAR ASSOCIATION FOR HUMAN RIGHTS, THE U.N. HIGH SECRETARY FOR HUMAN RIGHTS, THEY'RE ALL WEIGHING IN, SAYING, THIS IS CONCERNING.

>> WHY DO YOU THINK HE WON'T LEAVE?

HE DIDN'T LEAVE, EVEN FACED WITH THESE CHARGES?

>> SO, HE'S WORKED HIS WHOLE LIFE FOR THIS VISION OF CREATING A WORLD WITHOUT POVERTY.

THAT VISION WAS STARTED IN BANGLADESH, WITH MANY COLLEAGUES WHO HE STILL WORKS WITH, SO, IT'S NOT JUST, YOU KNOW, THEIR WORK THAT'S AT STAKE, IT'S THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE WHO HAVE MADE THIS DREAM OF A WORLD WITHOUT POVERTY.

THEY CONTINUE TO DO THAT, SO, WHY SHOULD HE LEAVE HIS COUNTRY THAT HE LOVES SO MUCH?

>> AND HE IS THE FIRST OR THE ONLY BANGLADESHI NOBEL LAUREATE?

>> THAT'S CORRECT.

>> YOU'D THINK HE'D BE LIONIZED.

>> YEAH.

HONESTLY, I CAN'T KEEP TRACK, CHRISTIANE, HE'S WON THE NOBEL PEACE PRIZE, ONE OF SEVEN PEOPLE TO HAVE WON IT, THE CONGRESSIONAL GOLD MEDAL, AND THE MEDAL OF FREEDOM.

>> WOW.

>> YEAH.

THE LAST TWO GIVEN BY THE UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT.

HE HAS, I THINK, SOMETHING LIKE 60 HONORARY DOCTORATES FROM AROUND THE WORLD.

NO PRESSURE AS HIS DAUGTER.

>> WELL, YOU REALLY ARE STANDING UP FOR YOUR FATHER.

THANK YOU FOR COMING IN.

>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.

>> AND AGAIN, MUHAMMAD YUNUS IS OUT ON BAIL WHILE HE APPEALS THE CHARGES AGAINST HIM.

>>> DEMOCRACY IS ALSO ON THE MIND OF OUR NEXT GUEST, MICHAEL KIRK IS THE FILMMAKER BEHIND A NEW "FRONT LINE" DOCUMENTARY CALLED "DEMOCRACY ON TRIAL."

THAT PREMIERES TOMORROW ON PBS.

AND IT CHARTS SPECIAL COUNCIL JACK SMITH'S INDICTMENT AGAINST THE FORMER PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP, WHICH ALLEGES FEDERAL ELECTION INTERFERENCE IN 2020.

AND KIRK TELLS HARI WHY HE CHOSE TO RELEASE THE FILM NOW.

>> CHRISTIANE, THANK YOU.

MICHAEL, YOUR FILM, "DEMOCRACY ON TRIAL," LAYS OUT THE INVESTIGATION INTO PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP'S ATTEMPTS TO OVERTURN THE RESULTS OF THE ELECTION.

WHY THIS FILM, WHY NOW?

PEOPLE ARE TELLING US IS THE MOST IMPORTANT ELECTION -- PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION, AND IN THE FACE OF THAT, IT SEEMS LIKE RESOLVING JANUARY 6th AND WHAT HAPPENED, WHETHER TRUMP HAS RESPONSIBILITY, WHAT IMPACT THAT ALL HAS ON THE DEMOCRACY AND HOW THE ELECTION IS GOING TO GO, FELT LIKE THE VERY FIRST PIECE OF BUSINESS WE SHOULD DO, AND "FRONTLINE" ASKED US TO REALLY TAKE A LONG HARD LOOK AT THE TRIAL THAT IS JACK SMITH'S SPECIAL COUNSEL TRIAL, THAT MAY HAPPEN IN WASHINGTON ON MARCH 4th.

TAKE A LOOK THERE FIRST.

AT WHAT A LOT OF PEOPLE THINK OF AS THE CENTRAL MOMENT, AT THE END OF THE TRUMP PRESIDENCY, THE BEGINNING OF THE BIDEN PRESIDENCY, AND THE BEGINNING OF THIS PARTICULAR YEAR.

LET'S RESOLVE THAT, PEOPLE KEPT SAYING THAT TO US.

SO, WE WENT OUT AND TRIED TO TELL THE STORY, IN ITS SIMPLEST, AND MOST THOROUGH FORM.

AND WE WOUND UP WITH 2 1/2 HOURS OF WHAT I HOPE IS INFORMATIVE TELEVISION.

>> YOU KNOW, HAVING HAD A CHANCE TO SEE IT, IT IS TRULY AMAZING HOW YOU'VE KIND OF TRUNCATED WHAT TOOK WEEKS AND MONTHS FOR THE INVESTIGATIVE COMMITTEE TO COMPILE AND WHAT WENT INTO JACK SMITH'S PROSECUTION CASE.

AND HOW YOU'VE LAID THAT OUT IN 2 1/2 HOURS.

BUT YOU KNOW, GOING TO THAT KIND OF HOUSE SELECT COMMITTEE, AFTER REPUBLICANS IN THE SENATE CHOSE TO BLOCK ANYTHING LIKE THAT FROM HAPPENING, WE HAD A 9/11 COMMISSION BEFORE, IT WAS BIPARTISAN, THAT'S NOT THE CASE HERE, AND YOU KIND OF HAD AN INTERESTING ELEMENT IN HERE OF REPRESENTATIVE BENNIE THOMPSON FROM MISSISSIPPI.

WHY WAS THIS PERSONAL FOR HIM?

>> I THINK, YOU KNOW, THERE ARE MANY THINGS THAT CONGRESSMAN THOMPSON IS IN WASHINGTON TO ACHIEVE, BEEN THERE A LONG TIME.

LONG, POLITICAL CAREER, COMING FROM A SMALL TOWN IN MISSISSIPPI, 500 PEOPLE, I THINK, IN THE TOWN.

AT THE HEART OF WHAT CONGRESSMAN THOMPSON TELLS US HIS LIFE'S WORK HAS BEEN IS PROTECTION OF VOTER RIGHTS, FOR LOTS OF OBVIOUS REASONS.

HE'S BLACK, HE'S BEEN IN CONGRESS WHEN ALL OF THE EFFORTS TO LESSEN, TO MAKE IT HARDER TO VOTE, HAVE BEEN HAPPENING.

HE THINKS OF THIS PARTICULAR MOMENT, THAT PARTICULAR SET OF EVENTS AROUND THE JANUARY 6th ATTACKS, AS AN EXAMPLE OF -- THE GREATEST MANIFESTATION OF AN EFFORT TO LIMIT THE VOTES OF THE AMERICAN PEOPLE.

AND HE THINKS OF IT AS HIS JOB TO POINT THAT OUT.

THE SECOND, AND MOST IMPORTANT THING TO HIM, WAS THE USE OF THE CONFEDERATE BATTLE FLAGS AT -- AT THE ATTACK ON CONGRESS, AND HOW THAT RESONATED WITH HIM IN A LIFETIME OF GROWING UP AROUND THE KLAN AND OTHER WHITES IN HIS PART OF MISSISSIPPI, AND WHAT WAS HAPPENING IN THE SOUTH, TO LIMIT VOTING RIGHTS.

THE BATTLE FLAG BECAME -- THE CONFEDERATE BATTLE FLAG BECAME A SYMBOL OF THOSE TIMES THAT RESONATES EVEN ON THE STEPS OF THE CAPITOL ON JANUARY 6th.

SO, CHAIRMAN THOMPSON WAS DETERMINED TO DRAW A BRIGHT RED LINE AROUND THAT, CIRCLE AROUND THAT, AND SAY, THIS IS SOMETHING WE NEED TO TALK ABOUT, BECAUSE VOTING RIGHTS ARE AT STAKE HERE, NOT JUST DONALD TRUMP'S PRESIDENCY OR POTENTIAL PRESIDENCY.

>> THE LAYERS OF SHOWING INTENT AND HOW YOUR FILM BREAKS THAT DOWN IS ALSO VERY INTERESTING.

THE PRESIDENT, HE'S WARNED AND TOLD BY PEOPLE THAT ARE CLOSE TO HIM THAT HE OTHERWISE TRUSTED, YET HE GOES OUT AND REPEATEDLY, KNOWINGLY, GOES OUT AND SPREADS THE BIG LIE.

>> WE WERE CAREFUL TO TRY TO INCLUDE COMMENTS FROM THE PEOPLE WHO TOLD HIM THESE THINGS THREE DAYS BEFORE, TWO DAYS BEFORE.

WE HAVE AS MUCH EVIDENCE AS WE CAN FIND.

BILL BARR, THE FORMER ATTORNEY GENERAL, TELLING HIM IT WAS B.S., THAT EVERYTHING THAT HE WAS ASSERTING, HE USED THE RESOURCES OF THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT, TO EXAMINE IT, AND THAT IT WAS B.S., THE SAME IS TRUE WITH SECRETARY RAFFENSPERGER FROM GEORGIA, AND OTHERS.

FINDING THE ACTING ATTORNEY GENERAL, OTHERS WHO TOLD HIM, WARNED HIM, SAID, IT'S NOT TRUE, DON'T GO FORWARD AND SAY IT, WE WANTED TO MAKE REALLY SURE THOSE WERE REPUBLICANS WHO WERE MAKING THOSE ASSERTIONS, THOSE WERE PEOPLE WHO HAD BEEN SUPPORTERS OF HIS, WHO HAD WORKED WITH HIM ON RE-ELECTION, WHO DESPERATELY HOPED HE WOULD WIN RE-ELECTION.

IT IS THOSE PEOPLE WHO ARE SAYING THOSE THINGS IN THE FILM, AND THAT FELT TO ME LIKE THE NEXT STEP TO TAKE.

IT'S NOT LIBERALS, IT'S NOT ACADEMICS, IT'S NOT EVEN MOSTLY JOURNALISTS, IT'S PEOPLE WHO WERE CLOSE TO HIM, WHO WORKED FOR HIM, WHO TRUSTED HIM, WHO HE TRUSTED, WHO WERE TELLING HIM WHAT HE WAS ASSERTING WERE NOT -- WAS NOT TRUE, AND HE, DAYS LATER, WOULD, OF COURSE, GO FORWARD AND RESAY THE LIES, AS WE LAY THEM OUT NOW.

>> ONE OF THE REPUBLICANS THAT YOU SPEAK WITH, WHO WAS A SUPPORTER OF PRESIDENT TRUMP, WAS RUSTY BOWERS, OUT OF ARIZONA, A REPRESENTATIVE, AND HE RECALLS HOW HE WAS PRESSURED BY RUDY GIULIANI AND HE KIND OF LAYS OUT THE TENSION, HIS SORT OF MORAL AND INTERNAL STRUGGLE.

>> WHAT YOU HAVE TO UNDERSTAND HERE IS THAT RUSTY BOWERS, THIS GUY WHO WORKED FOR TRUMP, WANTED TRUMP TO BE RE-ELECTED IN ARIZONA, WORKED FOR TRUMP'S RE-ELECTION, IS GIVEN A CHOICE.

HE CAN CHOSE BETWEEN HIS OATH TO THE CONSTITUTION AND PRESIDENT TRUMP.

AND HE STAYS LOYAL TO THE CONSTITUTION.

THAT IS THE CHOICE HE'S GIVEN.

>> EVEN IN THE PAST -- >> RUSTY BOWERS SPEAKS WITH A MORAL AND LEGAL CLARITY THAT'S VERY NECESSARY TO UNDERSTAND.

>> WE CHOOSE TO FOLLOW THE OUTCOME OF THE WILL OF THE PEOPLE.

IT'S MY OATH, AND -- AND I HOPE THAT I'LL NEVER BREAK THAT.

I KNOW I'M NOT, YOU KNOW, I'M NOT PERFECT, I'M CERTAINLY NOT A PERFECT WITNESS.

BUT I AM A WITNESS.

AND -- I HAD MY SAY.

AND I WASN'T TRYING TO FLOWER IT UP.

WASN'T TRYING TO BE ANYTHING OTHER THAN JUST RUSTY.

>> WHAT WAS THAT EMBLEMATIC OF?

THERE ARE SO MANY REPUBLICANS THAT YOU TALK TO IN THE FILM THAT ECHO THAT SAME STRUGGLE.

>> WHAT GIVES ME HOPE, BRINGS AN OPTIMISM TO AN OTHERWISE VERY NEGATIVE LAST FEW MONTHS MAKING THIS FILM AND SENSING HOW JUST VIRAL THE ARGUMENT, TOXIC THE ARGUMENTS HAVE BECOME IN THE COUNTRY AND AROUND THIS PARTICULAR ISSUE, IS THIS IDEA THAT -- THAT RUSTY BOWERS, GABRIEL STERLING, SECRETARY RAFFENSPERGER, A LOT OF PEOPLE IN THIS -- CASSIDY HUTCHINSON, THESE ARE AMERICANS, CONSERVATIVE AMERICANS, PRO-TRUMP, WORKED FOR TRUMP, WANTED TO VOTE -- THEY VOTED FOR TRUMP, WANTED EVERYBODY TO VOTE FOR TRUMP, WERE HEARTBROKEN WHEN HE LOST, THESE ARE PEOPLE WHO, IN THEIR OFFICIAL CAPACITIES, HAD ALSO TAKEN AN OATH TO THE CONSTITUTION, AND THEY FOUND THEMSELVES, THEY TELL US, THEY SAID IT TO THE COMMITTEE AND THEY SAID IT TO US, THEY FIND THEMSELVES IN A MOMENT, A CRITICAL MOMENT IN THEIR LIVES, WHERE RUDY GIULIANI, JENNA ELLIS, ONE OF TRUMP'S ATTORNEYS, OR TRUMP HIMSELF, ON THE TELEPHONE, ASK THEM TO DO SOMETHING THAT THEY FELT UNCOMFORTABLE DOING, THAT THEY THOUGHT HE WAS ASKING THEM TO LIE AND IN EVERY CASE, THESE AMERICANS, THESE RIGHT WING, CONSERVATIVE, TRUMP SUPPORTING AMERICANS, CHOSE THE CONSTITUTION.

>> YOU KIND OF RETELL PRETTY IMPORTANT SCENES IN THE OVAL OFFICE.

CERTAIN MEETINGS THAT HAPPEN WITH HIS ADVISERS, EVERYTHING THAT RUDY GIULIANI SUGGESTED TO THE PRESIDENT, AND HOW TO DEAL WITH, YOU KNOW, THE RESULTS GOING FORWARD, TO HOW THE PRESIDENT TALKED TO MIKE PENCE DAYS BEFORE JANUARY 6th.

EVEN ON THE MORNING OF.

YOU KNOW -- >> IT'S AN AMAZING THING, HARI.

BECAUSE OF WHAT THE COMMITTEE HAD, THE SUBPOENA POWER, YOU CAN HEAR WHAT HIS DAUGHTER THINKS WHEN HE'S FIGHTING WITH PENCE.

YOU CAN HEAR WHAT HIS OWN ATTORNEYS THOUGHT IN MANY CRITICAL MOMENTS.

IT WAS A SUPERCHARGED ENVIRONMENT AROUND THE WHITE HOUSE, AND THE GREAT GOOD NEWS FOR THOSE OF US WHO PRACTICE LONG-FORM JOURNALISM, A LOT OF IT EXISTS, EXISTS ON THE RECORD, EXISTS BY PEOPLE WHO ARE WILLING TO TALK TO US, EXISTS BY AUDIO RECORDINGS AND VIDEO RECORDINGS.

IT'S PRETTY HARD TO MAKE THE ARGUMENT, FOR EXAMPLE, IN A VERY SIMPLE WAY, THAT THE CROWD WAS REALLY JUST SLIGHTLY UNRULELY, THEY GOT OUT OF HAND, BUT THEY DIDN'T REALLY COMMIT CRIMINAL BEHAVIOR.

WHEN YOU LOOK AT THE VIDEO OF THE CRIMINAL BEHAVIOR BEING COMMITTED.

>> ONE OF THE INTERESTING INSIGHTS THAT THE FILM RECOUNTS IS THE TESTIMONY OF CASSIDY HUTCHINSON, AND SHE WAS KIND OF THE INSIDER THAT MADE THE TESTIMONY THAT DAY IN FRONT OF THE COMMITTEE, BUT ONE OF THE THINGS THAT SHE TALKS ABOUT IS THE PRESIDENT'S DISPLEASURE WITH THE CROWD SIZE AT THE ELLIPSE.

>> HUTCHINSON HEARD CRUCIAL EVIDENCE OF WHAT TRUMP KNEW ABOUT THE POTENTIAL FOR VIOLENCE THAT DAY.

>> WHEN WE WERE IN THE TENT BEHIND THE STAGE, HE WAS VERY CONCERNED ABOUT THE SHOT, MEANING, THE PHOTOGRAPH THAT HE WOULD GET, BECAUSE THE RALLY SPACE WASN'T FULL.

>> THE FORMER PRESIDENT WAS UNHAPPY WITH THE CROWD SIZE.

WE LEARNED THAT SOME OF THE CROWD SIZE INSIDE THE BARRICADE WAS DUE TO THE FACT THAT PEOPLE WERE UNWILLING TO PASS THROUGH THE MAGNETOMETERS.

PRESUMABLY BECAUSE THEY HAD -- THEY WERE CARRYING CONTRABAND WEAPONS.

>> SEVERAL THOUSAND WATCHED FROM THE LAWN NEAR THE WASHINGTON MONUMENT.

>> I OVERHEARD THE PRESIDENT SAY SOMETHING TO THE EFFECT OF, YOU KNOW, I DON'T EFFING CARE THEY HAVE WEAPONS.

THEY'RE NOT HERE TO HURT ME, TAKE THE EFFING MAGS AWAY.

>> NONE OF US WHO COVERED TRUMP FROM THE VERY FIRST HOURS OF HIS PRESIDENCY SHOULD BE SURPRISED THAT HE'S INTERESTED IN CROWD SIZE.

WE ALL REMEMBER THE ARGUMENTS ABOUT HIS INAUGURAL EVENTS AND HIS AMERICAN CARNAGE SPEECH AND HIS DISAPPOINTMENT THAT THE CROWDS WEREN'T BIGGER AT HIS, FRANKLY, LIES THAT IT WAS BIGGER THAN IT TURNED OUT ACTUALLY TO BE.

SO, HE WAS ESPECIALLY, I THINK, ATTUNED, HAVING INVITED HIS SUPPORTERS TO WASHINGTON ON THIS PARTICULAR DAY, TO DISRUPT CONGRESS AND AS THE SPEECH WAS ABOUT TO TAKE PLACE, TO WANT THEM ALL TO BE ON CAMERA, TO BE A VISUAL MANIFESTATION OF HIS POWER AND HEFT, AND THE THREAT THAT THEY PRESENTED, I'M LEAVING ASIDE THE QUESTION OF WHETHER HE CAUSED THEM TO GO UP TO THE CAPITOL BUILDING AND COMMIT UNLAWFUL ACTS, BUT JUST FOR THE VISUAL ALONE, THE OPTICS OF IT ALONE, HE WANTED THEM TO BE IN THERE CLOSER.

AND AS HE SAYS, ACCORDING TO CASSIDY HUTCHINSON, THEY'RE NOT HERE WITH THEIR WEAPONS FOR ME.

I DON'T HAVE TO WORRY ABOUT THEM, YOU DON'T HAVE TO PROTECT ME.

THEY'RE NOT HERE FOR ME.

AND I THINK HE BELIEVED THE IMPLICATIONS OF WHAT HE WAS SAYING IS THAT THEY WERE BODY ARMORED UP, NOT ALL OF THEM, BUT ENOUGH OF THEM WERE BODY ARMORED UP AND PERHAPS CARRYING WEAPONS, AS WE KNOW, THERE WERE PEOPLE WITH WEAPONS IN THE CAPITOL BUILDING, AND STANDING UP ON THAT HILL, THAT -- WHEN WE FOUND THE SHOT OF THE SMALL CROWD, THE SMALLER CROWD AROUND HIM AND THEN YOU CUT TO THE WIDE SHOT UP AT THE -- PICTURE OF THE MEMORIAL BEHIND THEM, YOU SEE THE TENS OF THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE WHO WOULD NOT GO THROUGH THE MAGNETOMETERS, THAT, IF IT WAS A SECRET SERVICE AGENT, I WOULD BE VERY ANXIOUS ABOUT WHETHER I WOULD TAKE THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES UP TO THE CAPITOL BUILDING, ONCE THOSE PEOPLE, WHO HAD NOT BEEN THROUGH THE MAGNETOMETERS, WERE ON THEIR WAY UP THE STREET.

>> A LINE OF DEFENSE THAT PRESIDENT TRUMP'S LAWYERS HAVE USED IN DIFFERENT COURT FILINGS, AS WELL AS IN THE COURT OF PUBLIC OPINION, IS THAT THERE ARE SENTIMENTS EXPRESSED BY THE PRESIDENT, ON CAMPAIGN STUMPS, SOCIAL MEDIA, IS PROTECTED BY FREE SPEECH, AND YOU TALKED TO DIFFERENT LEGAL SCHOLARS ABOUT THIS, AND I'M SURE THIS IS GOING TO COME UP IN THE TRIAL, AS WELL.

WHAT DID THEY TELL YOU ABOUT THAT?

>> HE HAS THE RIGHT, AS HE ASSERTS, THAT HIS DEFENSE TEAM ASSERTS, HE HAS THE RIGHT TO SAY THINGS THAT MIGHT NOT BE TRUE.

HE HAS THE RIGHT THINGS TO SAY THINGS.

HE HAS A FIRST AMENDMENT RIGHT JUST LIKE I DO AND JUST LIKE YOU DO WHAT I WANTED TO KNOW FROM THE EXPERTS WAS, WHEN DOES IT BECOME A CRIME?

WHEN IS TALKING ABOUT A CONSPIRACY A CRIME?

WHEN IS IT, AS THEY SAY, YELLING FIRE IN A CROWDED THEATER WHEN THERE ISN'T A FIRE?

WHAT IS THE -- IS THAT A FIRST AMENDMENT RIGHT?

DO YOU HAVE THE RIGHT, THAT FREEDOM OF SPEECH?

YOU DO NOT.

AND THE LIMITS ON WHAT THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES CAN SAY WITH IMMUNITY, IS IT LIMITED?

HIS DEFENSE TEAM CAN SAYING, HE CAN SAY ANYTHING HE WANTS, HE'S THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES.

AND IF PRESIDENTS CAN'T SAY ANYTHING THEY WANT, AND IF THEY ARE NOT FREE TO SPEAK, BE CARE FUL OF ANY RULES THAT COME AROUND THAT LIMIT THAT.

BECAUSE BE CAREFUL, ONE DAY, YOUR PRESIDENT, THE ONE YOU LIKE, THE OTHER SIDE MAY BE TRYING TO GET HIM OR HER FOR THEIR SPEECH, FOR THINGS THEY SAY, IN OFFICE.

SO, THAT FINE LINE, THAT ARGUMENT OVER THAT FINE LINE, TRUMP'S LIES, ARE THEY ILLEGAL?

AND WHEN AND WHERE WOULD THEY BE ILLEGAL IN A CASE LIKE JANUARY 6th?

THAT'S WHAT WE SET OUT TO EXPLAIN WITH -- WITH THE EXPERTS, THE CONSTITUTIONAL LAW EXPERTS, AND I HOPE WE DID A PRETTY GOOD JOB OF MAKING THAT CLEAR FOR VIEWERS.

>> YOU KNOW, WITH THE 30,000-FOOT VIEW, WHEN YOU LOOK AT THIS FILM, WHO IS THE INTENDED AUDIENCE HERE?

BECAUSE IT DOESN'T SEEM THAT IT WOULD DO ANYTHING BUT HARDEN THE VIEWS OF HIS EXISTING SUPPORTERS.

EVERY TIME THE PRESIDENT FACES ANOTHER INDICTMENT, IT SEEMS LIKE HIS SUPPORT INCREASES AND HE'S ABLE TO PARLAY THAT INTO A CAMPAIGN DONATION AND SAY HE IS THE VICTIM, THERE ARE PEOPLE OUT TO GET ME, THIS IS A WITCH HUNT.

>> I KNOW MANY, MANY MAGA SUPPORTERS WHO SAY IT'S PUBLIC BROADCASTING, HOW CAN I TRUST IT?

I'M NEVER GOING TO TRUST IT.

I KNOW WHAT YOU GUYS ARE GOING TO DO.

WHAT CAN I DO ABOUT THAT?

THERE'S ALMOST NOTHING THAT I CAN SAY OR DO IN A FILM THAT WOULD MAKE ALL OF THOSE TWO SIDES IN A VERY DIVIDED COUNTRY EMBRACE AND CHANGE ANY OF THEIR BEHAVIORS.

BUT I DON'T KNOW WHAT CHANGES PEOPLE'S BEHAVIORS.

SO, MY JOB IS TO LAY IT OUT THERE AS STRAIGHTFORWARDLY AND HONESTLY AND, IN A WAY, THAT'S COHERENT AS A NARRATIVE, AS I POSSIBLY CAN, AND HOPE THAT IF THERE ARE -- AND I SUSPECT THERE ARE, BETWEEN 7% AND 11% OF AMERICANS WHO ARE GOING TO MAKE UP THEIR MINDS ABOUT DONALD TRUMP RETURNING OR JOE BIDEN CONTINUING TO BE PRESIDENT, AND MAYBE THIS INFORMATION WILL HELP PEOPLE MAKE UP THEIR MINDS.

AND I THINK THAT'S SOMETHING WE ASPIRE TO DO, AND IN SOME WAYS, IT'S WHY IT'S SO IMPERATIVE TO TRY TO TAKE INTO ACCOUNT THE FACT THAT WE'RE NOT CONVICTING HIM WITH WHAT THE JANUARY 6th COMMITTEE DID.

WE'RE LAYING OUT THE BLUEPRINT FOR WHAT THE FEDERAL PROSECUTORS HAVE CONTENDED.

>> THE FILM IS CALLED "DEMOCRACY ON TRIAL."

MICHAEL KIRK, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

>> MY PLEASURE.

THANKS FOR HAVING ME.

>>> FINALLY TONIGHT, A GRAND SLAM FOR A NEW CHAMPION.

22-YEAR-OLD ITALIAN TENNIS STAR JANNIK SINNER POSES WITH HIS GIGANTIC TREE IF I THIS MORNING IN AUSTRALIA, AFTER A SUE PEN DOUSE COMEBACK IN YESTERDAY'S MEN'S OPEN FINAL.

MAKING HIM THE YOUNGEST TO WIN THE TOURNAMENT SINCE NOVAK DJOKOVIC IN 2008.

MEANTIME, INDIA'S ROHAN BOPANA BECAME THE OLDEST PLAYER AT 43 TO EVER WIN A GRAND SLAM TITLE AT THE AUSTRALIAN OPEN.

HE DID THIS, ALONGSIDE HIS MEN'S DOUBLES PARTNER MATTHEW EBDEN, PROVING ONCE AGAIN THAT AGE IS JUST A NUMBER.

>>> AND THAT'S IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.

IF YOU WANT TO KNOW WHAT'S COMING UP ON THE SHOW EVERY NIGHT, SIGN UP FOR YOUR NEWSLETTER AT PBS.ORG/AMANPOUR.

THANKS FOR WATCHING, AND GOOD-BYE FROM LONDON.