>> GOOD EVENING, AND WELCOME TO "METROFOCUS."

I'M JENNA PFLANAGAN.

THE AMERICAN CRIMINAL JUSTICE SYSTEM DICTATES IF YOU DO TO CRIME YOU HAVE TO DO TO TIME.

AS MANY PEOPLE ARE CONCERNED THOSE WHO ARE IN PRISON FORFEIT THEIR RIGHTS AS SOON AS THEY WALK INTO THE CELL.

IT'S AN IDEA THAT'S BUILT INTO THE CONSTITUTION ITSELF, THE 13th AMENDMENT, WHICH ABOLISHED SLAVERY MAKES AN EXCEPTION FOR THE INCARCERATED, AND IT'S THAT LOOPHOLE THAT ALLOWED FOR FORCED PRISON LABOR ACROSS THE COUNTRY.

RECENTLY A GROWING NUMBER OF STATES PASSED LAWS TO END THE PRACTICE OF UNCOMPENSATED PRISON LABOR, BUT SO FAR, NEW YORK STATE IS NOT ONE OF THEM.

SOME LAWMAKERS IN ALBANY WANT TO CHANGE THAT AND HAVE INTRODUCED TO LEGISLATION TO END THE PRACTICE AND REQUIRE THAT INCARCERATED PEOPLE MAKE AT LEAST MINIMUM WAGE FOR THEIR WORK.

JOINING ME NOW TO TALK ABOUT PRISON LABOR AS PART OF OUR CHASING THE DREAM INITIATIVE FOCUSING ON INJUSTICE AND INEQUALITY IS HARVEY EPSTEIN WHO INTRODUCED THE RECENT LEGISLATION.

WELCOME, ASSEMBLY MEMBER EPSTEIN.

>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME AND TALKING ABOUT THIS REALLY IMPORTANT ISSUE.

>> OF COURSE, OF COURSE.

ALSO WITH US IS JOHNNY PEREZ, A PRISON REFORM ADVOCATE, FORMERLY INCARCERATED NEW YORKER WHO FOR YEARS SOLD SHEETS AND PILLOW CASED FOR PENNIES AN HOUR.

HE WAS ALSO THREATENED WITH BE SPENT THREE YEARS IN SOLITARY CONFINEMENT.

HE'S NOW THE DIRECTOR OF THE U.S.

PRISONS PROGRAM AT THE NATIONAL RELIGIOUS CAMPAIGN AGAINST TORTURE.

JOHNNY, WELCOME TO "METROFOCUS."

>> THANK YOU SO MUCH.

THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.

>> AND LAST BUT CERTAINLY NOT LEAST, I'D LIKE TO WELCOME JESSI JESSIE KOKLAS.

SHE IS A STATEWIDE COORDINATOR FOR ENDING -- JESSE, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

>> THANKS FOR HAVING ME.

>> I SEMIABLYMAN I WANT TO START WITH YOU, BECAUSE I THINK IT MIGHT BE SURPRISING FOR SOME PEOPLE TO REALIZE THAT THE 13th AMENDMENT, WHICH IS FAMED FOR ABOLISHING SLAVERY ACTUALLY HAS A LOOPHOLE BUILT INTO IT.

CAN YOU EXPLAIN WHAT THAT IS?

>> OF COURSE.

SO, WE'VE ALL HEARD ABOUT THE 13th AMENDMENT THAT HAD THE NEW YORK STATE CONSTITUTION, U.S. CONSTITUTION.

THE EXEMPTION IS FOR PEOPLE WHO ARE INCARCERATED, SO THERE IS MANDATORY SLAVE LABOR THAT HAPPENS IN NEW YORK STATE IN THEIR PRINCE SONS EVERY SINGLE BECAUSE STATE LAW AND FEDERAL LAW ALLOWS IT.

OUR JOB IS TO CHANGE THE STATE CONSTITUTION, STOP THE MANDATORY LABOR AND THEN ALSO PROVIDE A MINIMUM WAGE FOR THOSE WHO ARE VOLUNTARILY DOING THE WORK WHILE THEY'RE INCARCERATED.

>> JUST TO GIVE A SENSE OF WHAT KIND OF WORK WE'RE TALKING ABOUT, JOHNNY, I WANT TO GO TO YOU AND GET MORE OF YOUR EXPERIENCE WHILE YOU WERE IN PRIN, SPECIFICALLY WORKING SHOWING THINGS LIKE PILLOW CASES AND SHEETS.

>> THANK YOU FOR INTRODUCING THIS IMPORTANT CONVERSATION TO THE STATE.

6 OUT OF 13 YEARS I WORKED AT THE CORRECTIONAL FACILITY WHERE I SEAMSTRESS.

I MADE 17 CENT ON THE DOLLAR.

THERE ARE NO SICK DAYS, OFF DAYS, BEREEVEMENT DAYS.

IF I DECIDED NOT TO GO TO WORK, YOU WOULD BE SENT TO SOLITARY CONFINEMENT, WHICH IS LOCKED IN 23, 24 HIS OR HERS A DAY WITH LITTLE TO NO -- SO, THAT WAS MY EXPERIENCE.

>> JESSE, FROM YOUR ORGANIZATION'S PERSPECTIVE, HOW DO YOU VIEW THE WAY THAT THIS FORCED PRISON LABOR HAS BEEN INCORPORATED PERHAPS IN AN UNCONSCIOUS WAY TO MOST AMERICANS, BUT INCORPORATE INTO THE OUR ECONOMIES?

>> YEAH, SO -- AND JUST TO SAY AGAIN, WOOE'RE PART OF THE 13 COALITION, A STATEWIDE COALITION OF MORE THAN 50 COALITIONS ACROSS THE STATE OF NEW YORK, A BROAD COALITION, AND WE SEE THIS AS A REAL PROBLEM, BECAUSE IT'S REALLY THE STATE THAT'S PROFITING OFF THIS UNPAID LABOR, WHICH IS JUST PENNIES ON THE DOLLAR, AND THE RANGE IN NEW YORK STATE IS 10 CENTS A HOUR TO 50 CENT AN HOUR FOR ALL MANNER OF JOBS, THE TYPE OF JOBS THAT FOLKS DO TO MAKE THE PRISON RUN, LIKE CLEANING AND COOKING, TO THINGS LIKE ASBESTOS ABATEMENT TO INDUSTRY JOBS LIKE JOHNNY MENTIONED THAT PROP UP STATE IND INDUSTRIES, CREATING THINGS LIKE PILLOW CASES BUT ALSO THE FURNITURE OUR LEGISLATORS SIT ON, THE DESKS THAT OUR SCHOOL CHILDREN SIT AT.

ONE THING THAT REALLY BROUGHT THIS TO A LOT OF PEOPLE'S ATTENTION IS DURING THE PANDEMIC, FOLKS INSIDE WERE PRODUCING PERSONAL PROTECTIVE EQUIPMENT LIKE HAND SANITIZER WITHOUT PERSONAL PROTECTIVE EQUIPMENT THEMSELVES.

AND THE FACT THAT THESE WORKERS ARE PAID PENNY ON THE DOLLAR ALLOWS THE STATE TO COST SAVE OFF THEIR BACKS OF OUR INCARCERATED WORKERS ACROSS THE STATE.

>> CAN I JUST ADD ONE THING?

>> ABSOLUTELY.

>> REMEMBER, THERE'S TWO PIECES HERE.

ONE IS THAT THE LAW ALLOWS MANDATORY WORK, INVOLUNTARY WORK.

AND THEN ON TOP OF IT, THE LAW ALLOWS CORE CRAFT, THIS ENTITY, TO -- STEAL PEOPLE'S WAGES BY NOT PAYING THEM THE MINIMUM WAGE.

SO THEY'RE BASICALLY -- WE'RE SUPPORTING WAGE LEFT THE OF OUR INCARCERATED BROTHERS AND SISTERS BY SAYING, WE'RE GOING PAY YOU 13 CENTS AN HOUR, EVEN THOUGH WHAT CORE CRAFT IS MAKING IS MADE BY OTHER COMPANIES.

EVERY POLICE STATION, EVERY GOVERNMENT BUILDING, ALL THESE THINGS ARE ITEMS THAT ARE IN -- AROUND US ARE BEING MADE BY INCARCERATED PEOPLE, AND THEN CORE CRAFT IS BENEFITTING BY THEIR LABOR BY SELLING IT TO THE PUBLIC AND SELLING IT TO OTHER GOVERNMENT ENTITIES.

SO NOT ONLY ARE WE FIRST ABUSING PEOPLE BY FORCING THEM TO WORK, SECOND OF ALL, WE'RE PAYING THEM SO LITTLE THEY CAN'T EVEN BUY TOILET PAPER, TOOTHBRUSHES WHILE THEY'RE INCARCERATED AND PUTTING THEIR FAMILIES IN DEBT.

1 OUT OF EVERY 3 INCARCERATED PEOPLE, FAMILIES ARE GOING INTO DEBT JUST TO INCARCERATE THE PERSON WITH BASIC NECESSITIES LIKE TOOTHBRUSH, TOOTHPASTE, AND SOAP.

>> WHAT I WANT TO GET AT IS THE LEGISLATION INTRODUCED.

I TALKED ABOUT THE 13thED.

MENT, FAMED FOR ABOLISHING SLA SLAVERY.

WHAT IS IN THIS LEGISLATION THAT WOULD PUT AN END TO FORCED PRISON LABOR OR AT LEAST UNFAIRLY COMPENSATED PRISON LABOR IN NEW YORK STATE?

>>, SO IT JUST PULLS OUT THE EXCEPTION.

IT SAYS, THE 13th AMENDMENT ABOLISHES SLAVERY EXCEPT FOR INCARCERATED PEOPLE.

WE'RE PULLING THE EXCEPTION LANGUAGE OUT OF THE OF OUT OF OUR STATE CONSTITUTION SO THERE WILL BE NO EXCEPTIONS.

WE'RE SAYING YOU CAN'T FORCE PEOPLE INTO LABOR NO MATTER WHERE THEY ARE, WHETHER THEY'RE INCARCERATED OR NOT.

THEN WE'RE SAYING ON TOP OF IT, THEN AFTER WE CHANGE THE CONSTITUTION, THEN WE'RE REQUIRING THE GOVERNMENT TO PAY MINIMUM WAGE.

SO THERE'S TWO PIECES OF THIS -- THE NEED TO BE DONE -- TO END THE CONSTITUTIONAL ALLOWING FOR SLAVERY, AND THEN SECOND OF ALL, CREATING THE MINIMUM WAGE FOR OUR INCARCERATED PEOPLE.

>> MAY I ADD TO THAT?

>> YES.

>> SO, LIKE SENATOR EPSHTTEIN SAID, WE HAVE TWO BILLS.

ONE IS THE CONSTITUTIONAL AMENDMENT.

IN ADDITION TO ENDING THE FORCED LABOR, IT WOULD MEANS FOLKS CAN'T BE PINNISHED FOR REFUSING TO WORK.

NOW FOLKS FACE SOLITARY CONFINEMENT, FAMILY VISITS, GOOD TIME CREDITS, WHICH EARN TIME OFF THEIR SENTENCES.

SECOND BILLING IN ADDITION TO RAISING WAGES, WHICH IS SUPER IMPORTANT, IT ALSO INSTITUTES WORKER HEALTH AND SAFETY PROTECTIONS, WHICH AS I MENTIONED, FOLKS ARE PERFORMING SOME DANGEROUS JOBS INSIDE WITH NONE OF THOSE PROTECTIONS BECAUSE THEY'RE NOT CONSIDERED WORKERS TO THE STATE.

THEY'RE NOT COVERED BY THINGS LIKE OSHA.

AND THEN ANOTHER BIG AIM OF THIS CAMPAIGN IS TO PROVIDE PATHWAYS TO EMPLOYMENT POST INCARCERATION, SO THIS BILL WOULD SET UP -- WOULD BASICALLY REDO THE JOB TRAINING PROGRAMS INSIDE WITH NOW THE SPECIFIC PURPOSE OF PROVIDING PATHWAYS TO EMPLOYMENT POST INCARCERATION, BECAUSE WE'VE HEARD THAT THE TRAINING INSIDE FROM MANY OF OUR INCARCERATED MEMBERS WHO ARE PART OF THIS COALITION, THEY'RE JUST REALLY NOT HELPFUL.

SOMEONE WAS DESCRIBING USING A COMPUTER PROGRAM WHEN THEY WERE INCARCERATED TWO YEARS AGO WHERE THE OPERATING SYSTEM WAS ON A FLOPPY DISK.

THAT'S SETTING PEOPLE BACK.

MOST PEOPLE IN OUR STATE PRISONS AND JAILS ARE RELEASED, AND, YOU KNOW, STUDIES SHOW THAT IF YOU GET GAINFUL EMPLOYMENT UPON RELEASE, YOU'RE LESS LIKELY TO BE RE-ARRESTED AND RETURN TO PRISON AND JAIL.

SO, THOSE ARE SOME OTHER THINGS THAT THE BILL DOES.

>> JOHNNY, I WANT TO TURN TO YOU.

AND FIRST ASK IF YOU'RE COMFORTABLE ANSWERING THIS QUESTION.

I GUESS, WHAT WAS IT THAT LANDED YOU IN JAIL OR IN PRISON?

>> YEAH, AND I REALLY APPRECIATE THAT QUESTION.

THAT'S A QUESTION I GET A LOT, ESPECIALLY IN THE CONTEXT OF THESE CONVERSATIONS.

I FIND WHEN PEOPLE ASK WHAT I WAS INCARCERATED FOR, THEY'RE TRYING TO DECIDE IF SOMEBODY SHOULD STILL BE TREATED FAIRLY, SHOULD BE TREATED WITH DIGNITY, SHOULD I STILL BE A FATHER IN WHAT I WANT TO HIGHLIGHT IN THE SPIRIT OF THE BILL, REGARDLESS OF WHO YOU ARE AND WHAT YOU'VE DONE, YOU DESERVE A BASIC LEVEL OF HUMAN DIGNITY.

YOU DESERVE SOCIETY YOU'RE GOING TO COME BACK INTO.

YOU'RE STILL ABLE TO HAVE A FATHER.

YOU'RE STILL ABLE TO HAVE SICK TIME WHEN YOU NEED SICK TIME.

THE WAY THEY TREAT PEOPLE SAYS MORE ABOUT US THAN IT DOES ABOUT THEM.

IF WE ARE A SOCIETY OF COMPASSION, SECOND CHANCES, SAFETY, AND WE ARE TO UPHOLD THOSE VALUES IT DOESN'T MATTER WHAT SOMEBODY WAS INCARCERATED FOR.

>> I'M GOING TO GIVE YOU THE FINAL QUESTION, BECAUSE WE ARE COMING TO THE END OF OUR TIME TOGETHER, BUT WHAT KIND OF DIFFERENCE WOULD IT HAVE BEEN FOR YOUR FAMILY IF YOU HAD BEEN PAID AT LEAST MINIMUM WAGE?

>> BEFORE I WAS REMOVED FROM SOCIETY I WAS THE HEAD OF THE HOUSEHOLD, WHICH WHEN I WAS REMOVED FROM SOCIETY, FORCED MY FAMILY TO HAVE LESS INCOME.

I WASN'T ABLE TO SEND MONEY HOME AND ALSO SHOW UP AND SUPPORT MY DAUGHTER'S MOTHER, WHO WAS STILL OUT HERE BY HERSELF.

BUT ALSO I THINK THAT THERE'S A -- THERE'S THIS -- SOMETHING WE DIDN'T TAP INTO IS THAT THERE'S A LEVEL OF DEHUMANIZATION THAT GOES ON THAT ACTUALLY IMPACTS YOUR MENTAL HEALTH, IMPACTS YOUR SELF-WORTH, YOUR OWN DIGNITY.

WHEN I CAME OUT, I DIDN'T FEEL I WAS WORTH MORE THAN A DOLLAR, BECAUSE I WAS PAID LESS THAN A DOLLAR FOR YEARS WHEN THEY MADE MILLIONS OF SHEETS I SEWED.

I SEWED EVERY DAY AND I MADE 12 DOZEN HER POUR IN MY TIME.

IT WOULD HAVE NOT ONLY MADE A DIFFERENCE FOR ME, BUT IN MY COMMUNITY.

THANK YOU FOR ALLOWING ME TO SHARE THAT.

>> ABSOLUTELY.

LIKE I SAID, UNFORTUNATELY WE HAVE COME TO THE END OF OUR TIME TOGETHER, BUT I DO WANT TO THANK ALL OF MY GUESTS.

HARVEY EPSTEIN, JOHNNY PEREZ, AND JESSE KOKLAS.

THANK YOU FOR BRINGING AN IMPORTANT ISSUE LIKE THIS TO THE FOREFRONT, AND THANK YOU FOR JOINING US ON "METROFOCUS."

>> THANK YOU.

>> THANK YOU.