John: Good evening.

I'm John Yang.

On this labor day weekend, there's been no holiday from the turmoil and controversy at the agency in charge of protecting the American public's health.

Several CDC leaders have resigned after the white house ousted the agency's new director, Dr. Susan Monarez, after less than a month in the position.

Her lawyers say it's because she refused to "Rubber stamp unscientific" directives and "Fire dedicated health experts."

In just six months, the agency has lost nearly half its budget, thousands of employees, and is caught in a political struggle as health secretary Robert F. Kennedy Jr. Moves to reshape the nation's vaccine policies.

In an essay in the New York Times this weekend, democratic senator Bernie Sanders of Vermont called for Kennedy's resignation.

Ali rogin sat down with Dr. Richard Besser, who was acting CDC director in the Obama administration.

He's now CEO of the Robert wood Johnson foundation which, we should note, is a funder of pbs news.

Ali: Dr. Richard Besser, thank you so much for joining us.

You've been in communication with Dr. Monarez.

What is your understanding of what secretary Kennedy asked her to do that was really a red line for her?

Dr. Besser: Yeah, it was really coincidental.

She and I had a meeting scheduled for Wednesday.

I reach out to all directors of the CDC to offer my support and she thanked me and said that she didn't expect to be in the position long, that she had two lines that she would not cross when she took the job.

One was she would never do anything that was illegal.

And she was asked to fire her leadership team which she felt was illegal given that they were outstanding public servants and then the other was she would not promote anything that wasn't supported by the best science.

And she was asked by the secretary to agree to approve any recommendations that came out of the immunization advisory committee to the CDC.

She refused and expected that shortly after our call she would be dismissed.

Ali: The other CDC leaders who resigned at the same time she was fired have said that, similarly, they simply could not serve at the CDC any longer.

How do you think these departures are going to affect the mission of the CDC?

Dr. Besser: It's gonna have a major impact on the agency.

It has been a very challenging five years for people in public health.

With the covid pandemic, we saw politicization of public health like we've never seen before.

And so those who were still there for this administration were already under incredible stress.

So to have a secretary come in and immediately fire thousands of federal health workers, cut funding to the nih, and really condemn CDC as an institution not worth following.

It's been extremely hard and these leaders have done a lot to hold morale together, to hold people together.

So without them, the agency is definitely going to be struggling even more.

Ali: The fda earlier this week approved covid boosters for a much smaller population of individuals.

What do you think the future of vaccine access is going to look like in the near future, especially as we're entering this new school year?

Dr. Besser: Many people's access to vaccines is dependent on a recommendation from the CDC.

If the CDC doesn't recommend the vaccine, many insurance companies are not going to pay for it.

There's an incredible program in America called the vaccine for children program, and it ensures that every child has access to recommended vaccines.

It's wonderful and it eliminated any kind of disparities for vaccines by income.

Without a CDC recommendation for vaccination for all children, many children are not gonna be able to get the vaccine and your ability to get it will depend on your income.

That's absolutely wrong.

We're gonna need the states to step up and fill some of those gaps.

And there's absolutely no way that the states can replace the massive federal funding that went into our vaccine system.

Ali: What does this say to you about the ability of the united States to whether another public health emergency, such as another pandemic?

Dr. Besser: You know, we are at risk for so many different reasons.

Most of the money that comes to CDC goes through to state and local public health departments, and there have been big cuts there.

The agency is going to be led by an individual with no public health experience.

You know, I served as the acting director at the CDC for an important reason.

I had spent four years running emergency preparedness and response for the agency.

You never can predict when there's going to be a public health emergency.

And during my tenure, that's when the H1N1 swine flu pandemic started.

We now have in Mr. O'neill, an individual who doesn't know the agency and doesn't know public health response.

So if there is a pandemic, if there is a new threat to people's health, I have absolutely no confidence that he's going to be able to manage that appropriately.

Ali: And to that end, Jim o'neill, as you said, has no medical background.

He has served at HHS before.

During his hearing, he said that he was pro-vaccine, but anti-mandates.

What do you think of his ability to steward this agency at this time in general?

Dr. Besser: When someone says they're anti-mandates, I want to explore that further.

As a pediatrician, I know that one of the wonderful things for a new parent when they're sending their child to school is that they know that the other children in the classroom will be vaccinated.

That's a vaccine mandate.

I worry that this is a secretary who's going to bring those those requirements into question, he's going to challenge more and more of the childhood vaccines that have eliminated in our country so many diseases that cause havoc around the world.

Ali: Some of the departing leaders have said that they fear that the CDC is now broken beyond repair.

What do you make of that?

Dr. Besser: Well, it is broken.

I don't agree with the beyond repair, but it will take congress stepping up and saying that this is not a good thing for our nation.

It is a dangerous situation that will affect every part of our country.

Rural communities across America will be hit very hard by this decimation of our public health system.

And we need our elected officials to say, this is not what we want to see for America.

This is absolutely unacceptable.

Ali: Richard Besser, thank you so much for joining us.