>> HELLO EVERYONE AND WELCOME TO AMANPOUR AND COMPANYY.

HERE IS WHAT IS COMING UP.

>> TAKE A MOMENT TO THINK ABOUT WHAT THAT MEANS, TRUMP SAID "HITLER DID OF THE ATLANTIC REPORTS ON FOR THE MIL >>> HOW COULD THE SYSTEM RUN OVER US.

TRUMP OF DEFAMATION.

WE VISIT CHRISTIANE'S CONVERSATION WITH YUSEF SALAAM ONCE WRONGFULLY CONVICTED NOW A NEW YORK CITY COUNCIL MEMBER.

>>> THERE'S NO ROOM FOR THE DEATH PENALTY IN THE COUNTRY THE WAY IT'S APPLIED IN THE WEIGHTS USED.

>>> A BEST-SELLING WRITER CONFRONTS THE SPIKED WHEELS OF JUSTICE.

WALTER ISAACSON TALKS TO JOHN GRISHAM, THE AUTHOR OF FRAMED, ASTONISHING TRUE STORIES OF WRONGFUL CONVICTION.

>>> PLUS.

>> THIS IS GOING TO BE AN AMAZING JOURNEY.

>> SEES THE SUMMIT, AND INSPIRING STORY OF HOPE AND THE HUMAN SPIRIT.

>> AMANPOUR AND COMPANYY MADE POSSIBLE BY THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT, JIM ATWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS, CANDACE KING WEIR , THE SYLVIA A.

AND SIMON B. POYTA PROGRAMMING ENDOWMENT TO FIGHT ANTISEMITISM, THE FAMILY FOUNDATION OF THE LEILA AND MICKEY STRAUS FAMILY CHARITABLE TRUST, MARK J. BLECHNER, THE FILOMEN M. DGOSTINO FOUNDATION , SETON J. MELVIN , THE PETER G. PETERSON AND JOAN GANZ COONEY FUND, CHARLES ROSENBLUM, KOO AND PATRICIA YUEN, COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES IN OUR COMMUNITIES.

BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG, JEFFERY KATZ, AND BETH ROGERS, AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION AND VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

>>> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM EVERYONE.

IN NEW YORK SITTING IN FOR CHRISTIANE .

WARNINGS FROM DONALD TRUMP'S CLOSEST ADVISERS ABOUT HIS PREOCCUPATION WITH DICTATORS MAKING THEIR WAY INTO KAMALA HARRIS'S CLOSING ARGUMENT AND A RALLY, VICE PRESIDENT HARRIS SAID THIS.

>> THIS ISN'T 2016 OR 2020.

JUST A FEW MONTHS AGO THE UNITED STATES SUPREME COURT TOLD THE FORMER PRESIDENT THAT HE IS EFFECTIVELY IMMUNE NO MATTER WHAT HE DOES IN THE WHITE HOUSE.

JUST IMAGINE, DONALD TRUMP WITH NO GUARDRAILS.

HE WHO WILL CLAIM UNCHECKED AND EXTREME POWER IF HE IS REELECTED.

>> SHE PLANS TO KEEP DRIVING HOME THE WARNINGS ABOUT HIS AUTHORITARIAN PROCLIVITIES AND MORE HIGH-PROFILE EVENTS.

TONIGHT BEYONCI PERFORMED AT A RALLY IN HOUSTON.

THE POLES REMAINED DEADLOCKED AS OBSERVERS QUESTION WHETHER THE VOTERS ARE SWAYED BY THESE ALLEGATIONS AGAINST TRUMP.

THE EDITOR-IN-CHIEF WROTE THE ARTICLE CALLED TRUMP, I NEED THE KIND OF GENERALS HITLER HAD, THAT'S GETTING SO MUCH ATTENTION IN THESE WANING DAYS OF THE CAMPAIGN AND JOINS ME NOW FROM WASHINGTON.

JEFFREY, ALWAYS GOOD TO SEE YOU.

THERE ARE SO MANY ANGLES ONE COULD COVER AND FOLLOWING DONALD TRUMP.

YOU HAVE SPENT A LOT OF TIME TRYING TO UNDERSTAND HIS MISUNDERSTANDING OF THE U.S. MILITARY.

IN THIS PIECE, SPECIFICALLY, YOU TALK ABOUT HOW HE INTENDS TO WIELD HIS POWER OVER THE MILITARY IN ANOTHER TERM.

COULD YOU WALK US THROUGH THESE FINDINGS IN YOUR PIECE HERE?

>> SURE, I THINK THAT A LOT OF THE PEOPLE WHO WORKED FOR DONALD TRUMP IN HIS FIRST TERM, THESE ARE THE PEOPLE YOU REFER TO AS "MIND GENERALS" INCLUDING EX-MILITARY LEADERS LIKE JIM MADISON, JOHN KELLY WHO WORKED IN HIS CABINET ADMINISTRATION AND ALSO THE ACTUAL GENERALS AT THE TIME WHO WERE RUNNING THE JOINT CHIEFS OF STAFF IN THE ARMED SERVICES AND THE COMMANDS.

HE HAD AN EXPECTATION AND COULD NOT BE DISSUADED.

HE HAD THE EXPECTATION THAT IN THE AMERICAN SYSTEM THE GENERALS OWE THEIR LOYALTY TO THE PRESIDENT AND TO THE COMMANDER-IN-CHIEF AND ACCORDING TO THE AMERICAN SYSTEM THE COMMANDER-IN-CHIEF DOES ISSUE COMMANDS AND THE GENERALS ARE MEANT TO FOLLOW THEM EXCEPT IF THEY ARE ILLEGAL OR IMMORAL COMMANDS.

AMERICAN GENERALS, ALL-AMERICAN OFFICERS FOR THAT MATTER SWEAR THE OATH OF ALLEGIANCE NOT TO THE PRESIDENT BUT TO THE CONSTITUTION AND TO A SET OF IDEAS SO HE WOULD FIND IT FRUSTRATING WHEN A GENERAL WOULD SAY WELL, I CAN'T DO THAT.

I MEAN THE MOST OBVIOUS EXAMPLE OF THIS IS 2020 IN THE GEORGE FLOYD UNREST WHEN ACCORDING TO HIS FORMER SECRETARY OF DEFENSE, A FORMER ARMY OFFICER AS WELL, DONALD TRUMP REPEATEDLY ASKED HIM AND MARK MILLIE THE CHAIRMAN OF THE JOINT CHIEFS OF STAFF, WHY CAN'T YOU JUST SHOOT THE DEMONSTRATORS IN THE LEGS?

JUST SHOOT THEM?

AND HE WOULD EXPLAIN THAT'S NOT WHAT WE DO IN AMERICA.

HE WOULD THEN EXPRESS TO PEOPLE INSIDE OF THE WHITE HOUSE AND NOT FOR THE FIRST TIME HE WOULD SAY, WHY CAN'T YOU BE MORE LIKE THE GERMAN GENERALS?

THEY LISTENED TO HITLER WHENEVER HE TOLD THEM TO DO SOMETHING.

ONE FAMOUS CASE NOW, HE SAID THIS TO JOHN KELLY'S FORMER CHIEF OF STAFF, FORMER MARINE GENERAL AND JOHN KELLY WAS KIND OF ALMOST TEASING HIM AND SAYING, WILL WHO DO YOU MEAN THE BISMARCK'S GENERALS FROM THE FRANCO-PRUSSIAN WAR?

DO YOU MEAN THE KAISER GENERALS?

THEN KELLY SAID SURELY YOU DON'T MEAN HITLER'S GENERALS?

>> HE SAID TRUMP'S GENERALS.

KELLY EXPLAINED TO TRUMP THAT HITLER'S GENERALS SOME WERE OBVIOUSLY OBEDIENT AND SOME TRIED TO KILL HITLER WITH REPEATED ATTEMPTS TO KILL HITLER AND TRUMP DID NOT ACCEPT THAT AS REALITY OR A TRUE HISTORICAL FACT SO THIS GROWS FROM FRUSTRATION THAT THE PRESIDENCY AND THE AMERICAN SYSTEM IS NOT QUITE AS POWERFUL AS DONALD TRUMP WOULD LIKE FOR IT TO BE AND WHAT WE COULD TELL IN THE SECOND THEORETICAL SECOND TERM FOR DONALD TRUMP IS THAT HE WOULD TRY TO EXERCISE MAXIMUM POWER IN THE STYLE OF DICTATORS THAT HE ADMIRES AND APPARENTLY HE ADMIRES ASPECTS OF HITLER'S REIGN OF POWER.

>> YES, IT WOULD BE UNIMAGINABLE FOR A SCENARIO LIKE THAT IN ANY OTHER ADMINISTRATION FOR A PRESIDENT NOT TO BE IN A CAREER ENDING SITUATION IF A HEADLINE LIKE THAT CAME OUT ESPECIALLY FROM SOMEONE AS REVERED AND RESPECTED AS A FOR STAR GENERAL AS HIS LONGEST-SERVING CHIEF OF STAFF BUT YOU'VE GOT PEOPLE NOW QUESTIONING THE TIMING OF JOHN KELLY GOING FORWARD WITH THIS GIVEN THAT THESE INSTANCES HAPPENED SEVERAL YEARS AGO NOW THAT WE ARE ON THE CUSP OF THE ELECTION HERE, SEVERAL DAYS AWAY.

YOU SPOKE WITH JOHN KELLY AND THE NEW YORK TIMES HAS AUDIO RELEASED AN INTERVIEW WITH JOHN KELLY WHERE HE SAID IN HIS VIEW TRUMP DID MEET THE DEFINITION OF A FASCIST.

WHY DO YOU THINK HE'S CHOOSING NOW TO SPEAK OUT ABOUT THIS AS WELL AS HIS CONCERNS?

WAS IT THE FACT THAT A FEW DAYS AGO WE HEARD A A NEW THREAT FROM DONALD TRUMP SAYING THAT HE WANTS TO GO AFTER THE ENEMIES WITHIN, HIS POLITICAL OPPONENTS WITHIN THE UNITED STATES?

>> I DON'T KNOW THE QUESTION ITSELF SOUNDS LIKE , HE SPEAKING OUT BECAUSE HE'S WORRIED ABOUT THE FUTURE OF THE COUNTRY AND THERE'S THE ELECTION IN TWO WEEKS IT'S NOT THAT SURPRISING BUT THE ONLY THINK THAT SURPRISING IS THAT SOME OF THESE FORMER TRUMP OFFICIALS ESPECIALLY PEOPLE AFFILIATED WITH THE MILITARY HAVE NOT SAID OR HAVEN'T SPOKEN PUBLICLY BEFORE, THEY SAY THE REASON THEY DON'T DO THAT, I THINK THERE'S NERVOUSNESS ABOUT IT FOR THEIR OWN SECURITY AND THEIR FAMILIES AND SO ON BUT THE REASON THAT THEY DON'T DO IT GENERALLY IS BECAUSE THEY DON'T THINK THE MILITARY AND IN THE BEST OF ALL POSSIBLE WORLDS SHOULD BE POLITICIZED BUT I DON'T THINK THERE IS ANYTHING NEFARIOUS HERE LIKE ANYONE ELSE IN THE COUNTRY HE HAS AN OPINION ABOUT DONALD TRUMP AND HE SHARING HIS OPINIONS AND I THINK THERE ARE A LOT OF PEOPLE WHO WORKED FOR DONALD TRUMP THE FIRST TIME ROUND INCLUDING THIS CATEGORY, REX TILLER'S AND KELLY, JIM MATTIS, HR McMASTER, NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISOR, JOHN BOLTON ANOTHER OF HIS ADVISORS, THE SECRETARY OF DEFENSE.

I THINK THEY QUITE BELIEVE THAT HE'S ON THE CUSP OF BECOMING PRESIDENT.

THEY THOUGHT AFTER JANUARY 6 IN PARTICULAR THAT OKAY, AMERICA WOULD HAVE MOVED BEYOND THIS MAN AND HIS OBVIOUS THREATS TO WHAT WE WOULD CONSIDER TO BE THE TRADITIONAL CONSTITUTIONAL ORDER SO I THINK THAT THEY ARE REACTING THE WAY THEY THINK WOULD HELP TO EDUCATE CERTAIN SWING VOTERS ABOUT WHAT THEY CONSIDER TO BE THE NATURE OF DONALD TRUMP.

>> I'M RELATING TO WHAT I'M SURE YOU'VE HEARD AS WELL, THE PUSHBACK TO THIS PIECE FROM THOSE WHO ARE SUPPORTING TRUMP .

>> IT'S ON A WHOLE NEW LEVEL.

>> IT SAYING ON THE ONE HAND THEY RESPECT JOHN KELLY, HE'S NEVER LIED TO THEM SO THEY CAN'T IMAGINE HIM LYING BUT THEN THEY SAY HE WAS BURNED BY THE PRESIDENT SO THUS HE HAS AN AX TO GRIND BUT THAT'S THE ONLY ARGUMENT THEY COULD MAKE AT THIS POINT BUT LET ME PICK UP ON THE ISSUE OF FASCISM BECAUSE ABC NEWS CAME OUT WITH A NEW POLL TODAY ASKING REGISTERED VOTERS WHO THEY THINK AND 24, HERE THEY ARE, WHO THEY THINK IS MORE OF A FASCIST?

DONALD TRUMP, 44%, HALF OF THOSE WHO WERE POLLED OR KAMALA HARRIS AT 18% AND ON THE ONE HAND YOU COULD VIEW THIS AS REASSURING FOR DEMOCRATS WHO SAY THERE YOU HAVE IT IN BRIGHT CONTRAST.

SOMEBODY THE MAJORITY OF AMERICANS VIEW AS FASCIST VERSUS SOMEONE WHO LESS THAN 20% DO BUT ON THE OTHER HAND THIS RACE IS NECK AND NECK.

WHAT DOES THIS TELL YOU ABOUT THE COUNTRY RIGHT NOW AND SOME OF THESE MORE PRESSING ISSUES THAT AMERICANS ARE WORRIED ABOUT BECAUSE IT DOESN'T APPEAR THAT FASCISM IS ONE OF THE THINGS THEY ARE WORRIED ABOUT.

>> THE 18% OF PEOPLE WHO IDENTIFY KAMALA HARRIS AS A FASCIST MAY NOT UNDERSTAND THE MEANING BUT YOU CAN ALWAYS GET PEOPLE TO SAY YES TO OUTLANDISH THINGS IN THE POLLS, RIGHT?

YOU KNOW, IT'S NOT THAT DIFFICULT AND WHAT I'M ABOUT TO SAY ISN'T A PARTISAN, I DON'T BELIEVE IT'S A PARTISAN COMMENT IN SUPPORT OF ONE PARTY OR ANOTHER.

ONE OF THE TWO MAJOR PARTY CANDIDATES TRIED TO OVERTHROW THE GOVERNMENT AND THE OTHER ONE DIDN'T.

I MEAN, IT'S NOT THAT COMPLICATED.

DONALD TRUMP FOR THE FIRST TIME IN THE HISTORY OF THE AMERICAN PRESIDENCY NOT ONLY DID NOT ACCEPT THE OUTCOME OF A LEGITIMATE ELECTION BUT TRIED TO GET HIS FOLLOWERS TO PHYSICALLY PREVENT AND PHYSICALLY ATTACK HIS OWN VICE PRESIDENT FROM CERTIFYING THE ELECTION.

THIS WASN'T THAT LONG AGO SO IF I LOOK AT THE RACE AND SAY THERE'S SOMEONE WHO CEMENTED AN ATTACK ON THE CAPITAL AND THE CONSTITUTION AND THEIR SOMEONE WHO'S RUNNING DIDN'T?

IF YOU'RE ASKING THE QUESTION WHO'S A FASCIST AND WHO ISN'T?

YOU KNOW, LIKE A LOT OF PEOPLE I'M NOT SURE I'M TRACKING ENTIRELY WHAT IS MOTIVATING OR WHAT CERTAIN VOTERS ARE IGNORING OR WHY THEY ARE IGNORING THESE FACTS THAT ARE PRETTY CLEAR.

WE WATCHED THE SAME THING A NUMBER OF YEARS AGO.

>> ESTABLISHED PEOPLE LIKE JOHN KELLY, MARK MILLIE, THEY ALL SERVED AS A GUARD RAIL IN THE FIRST ADMINISTRATION FOR DONALD TRUMP.

I'M WONDERING, DURING A SECOND TRUMP ADMINISTRATION WHO WITH THESE MILITARY AND NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISORS BE?

WE HEAR THE NAME KASH PATEL, KEITH KELLOGG, ANOTHER GENERAL AS SOMEONE DONALD TRUMP IS REPORTEDLY CLOSE TO OR HE SPEAKS TO HIM REGULARLY.

ARE YOU WORRIED ABOUT THAT?

WITH THESE PEOPLE HE MAY BE SURROUNDING HIMSELF WITH?

>> I WOULD SAY THERE ARE OBVIOUSLY PEOPLE, INCLUDING PATRIOTIC MEN AND WOMEN WHO SERVED IN THE ARMED FORCES WITH HONORABLE DISCHARGES WHO HAVE A DIFFERENT OPINION ABOUT DONALD TRUMP AND JIM KELLY, JOHN KELLY, JIM MATTIS AND SO ON SO I'M NOT GOING TO CAST ASPERSIONS ON THEM.

I DON'T THINK JIM MATTIS AND MARK MILLIE ARE CASTING ASPERSIONS ON THEM.

THE LARGER POINT IS THAT THERE'S ALWAYS SOMEONE WHO WANTS TO SERVE IN ADMINISTRATION.

THERE ARE PEOPLE, OBVIOUSLY MICHAEL FLYNN THE FIRST NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISOR WHO BECAME KIND OF A QUANON FIGURE WHO BECAME PART OF THAT MIX AND IT'S DISTURBING.

HE WAS THERE FOR A SHORT PERIOD OF TIME BUT NEVERTHELESS, THAT WAS HIS FIRST PICK AND IT WOULDN'T SURPRISE ME TO SEE HIM GO BACK INTO THE MIX IN SOME FORM OR FASHION AND LOOK, THE POINT IS YOU COULD ALWAYS FIND PEOPLE TO SERVE, PEOPLE LOOKING AT THE WHITE HOUSE AS THEIR MAIN CHANCE.

BUT YOU ARE NOT GOING TO HAVE THE GROWN-UPS THE SAME LEVEL OF COMPETENCE AND INTELLIGENCE NECESSARILY AS YOU WOULD HAVE THE FIRST TIME.

SO I THINK IT WILL BE A MORE DANGEROUS WORLD BECAUSE OF THAT.

>> JEFFREY GOLDBERG, THERE IS A SOBERING WAY TO END THIS CONVERSATION I APPRECIATE YOU JOINING US.

>> IT'S A FASCINATING PIECE AND IT'S SO IMPORTANT TO TALK ABOUT THIS NOW WITH THE ELECTION JUST DAYS AWAY.

WE APPRECIATE YOUR TIME AND IT'S GOOD TO SEE YOU.

>> THANK YOU, GOOD TO SEE YOU.

>>> A NOTORIOUS MISCARRIAGE OF JUSTICE RETURNED TO THE HEADLINES IN THE WAKE OF THE PRESIDENTIAL DEBATE.

IN SEPTEMBER, DONALD TRUMP WAS UNREPENTANT OVER HIS PAST CALL FOR THE DEATH PENALTY FOR THE SO-CALLED CENTRAL PARK FIVE.

THE TEENAGERS WHO WERE WRONGFULLY CONVICTED OVER THEAND ASSAULT OF A FEMALE JOGGER IN 1989.

THEY KILLED THE PERSON ULTIMATELY DESPITE THE FACT AFTER BEING COERCED INTO FALSELY CONFESSING, THE FIVE PLED NOT GUILTY AND THE VICTIM WASN'T KILLED.

THE FIVE MEN WERE EVENTUALLY EXONERATED AND RELEASED FROM PRISON AND THIS WEEK THEY'VE FILED A LAWSUIT OVER TRUMP'S COMMENTS CALLING THEM FALSE AND DEFAMATORY.

TRUMPS SPOKESPERSON SAID IT'S JUST ANOTHER FRIVOLOUS ELECTION INTERFERENCE LAWSUIT AND AMONG THE FIVE IS YUSEF SALAAM WHO IS NOW IN NEW YORK CITY AS A COUNCILMEMBER.

I WANTED TO TAKE THE OPPORTUNITY TO VISIT CHRISTIANE'S CONVERSATION WITH YUSEF SALAAM IN APRIL.

>> COUNSELOR, WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.

>> I WAS A JOURNALIST HERE IN NEW YORK WHEN THIS HAPPENED AND I COVERED SOME OF WHAT HAPPENED TO YOU.

I WANT TO KNOW WHETHER YOU EVER THOUGHT THAT YOU WOULD GET FROM THAT POINT OF THE WORST TIME IN YOUR LIFE TO BEING AN ELECTED CITY COUNCIL MEMBER?

>> THAT WAS THE FURTHEST THING FROM MY MIND AS A 15-YEAR-OLD CHILD HAVING BEEN RUN OVER THE SPIKE WHEELS OF JUSTICE I THOUGHT THAT WAS THE END OF MY LIFE.

I THOUGHT MY LIFE WOULD NEVER BE THE SAME AND OF COURSE, IT HAS NEVER BEEN THE SAME BUT TO BE AN ELECTED OFFICIAL, WOW.

I NEVER IMAGINED.

>> YOU LOST IN THE FIRST HEARING OF THE CHAIR HEARING COMMITTEE, YOU PRESSED THE NYPD OF HOW THEY PREVENT WRONGFUL CONVICTIONS NOW.

YOU WERE CONVICTED ALONG WITH THE OTHER FOUR.

DID YOU GET AN ANSWER?

>> I'M SPEAKING FROM A PERSON WHO EXPERIENCED THE BRUNT OF THE POLICE DEPARTMENT AND THE INDIVIDUALS WHO INTERROGATED US WERE NOT BEGINNERS, THESE WERE OFFICERS, IN FACT DETECTIVES WITH 20 YEARS ON THE JOB.

WHAT I KNOW OF THE DETECTIVES WHO INTERROGATED US, THEY KNEW THEY WERE GETTING INCONSISTENT AND INCORRECT STORIES.

THEY KNEW WHAT THEY WERE HEARING WERE FALSE STATEMENTS JUST TO SAVE THE LIVES OF US WERE TRYING TO FIGURE OUT HOW TO GET OUT OF THE NIGHTMARE WE WERE IN.

>> YOU WOULD TELL THEM ANYTHING TO GET THEM TO STOP WHATEVER HARSH TREATMENT OR GET YOURSELF OUT?

>> I DID MAKE A FALSE CONFESSION BUT FOUR OF MY COMRADES DID.

I'M SAYING, WHEN YOU LISTEN TO THOSE CONFESSIONS, EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM WERE DIFFERENT.

I WOULD NEVER FORGET IN THE DOCUMENT TREE, RAYMOND SANTANA READ HIS FALSE CONFESSION.

>> A SCRATCH ON THE FACE, STRUGGLING WITH A FEMALE.

>> HE STOPS MIDWAY THROUGH, LOOKS AT THE CAMERA, I REMEMBER BEING IN THE AUDIENCE WATCHING WITH THE AUDIENCE.

>> A 14-YEAR-OLD BOY DOESN'T TALK LIKE THIS.

>> YOU COULD HEAR THE AUDIBLE GASP IN THE ROOM.

IT WAS ALMOST AS IF EVERYONE HAD REALIZED THEY HAD BEEN TRICKED .

I KNOW THAT THERE IS A WAY FORWARD IN THE WAY FORWARD IS NOT TO HAVE THE WRONG PERSON IN PRISON BECAUSE WHEN YOU'VE GOT THE WRONG PERSON IN PRISON OFTEN TIMES THE REAL CRIMINAL IS OUT COMMITTING MORE CRIME.

>> THAT'S WHAT HAPPENED TO YOU ALL BECAUSE YOU WERE WRONGFULLY IMPRISONED AND FINALLY THIS OTHER PERSON ADMITTED TO IT , SUBMITTING DNA AND ADMITTED TO IT.

DO YOU REMEMBER HOW THE PRISON OFFICIALS REACTED TO YOU OR THE POLICE OR LAW ENFORCEMENT?

WAS THEIR SHAME?

SHOCK OR REGRET FOR WHAT THEY HAD DONE?

>> YOU KNOW, FOR ME, MY EXPERIENCE IN WHAT I CALL THE WOMB OF AMERICA, I KNOW OFTEN TIMES IN OUR COMMUNITY THEY CALL IT THE BELLY OF THE BEAST, IT WAS DIFFERENT.

THERE WAS A KNOWING OF SORTS FROM MANY OF THE OFFICERS, THEY KNEW I WASN'T SUPPOSED TO BE THERE.

THEY GAVE ME GRACE AND MERCY.

THEY WOULD ALLOW ME TO READ BOOKS, TO DRAW.

JUST KIND OF BE STILL.

>> WHERE DID YOU GET THE COURAGE, THE STRENGTH NOT TO SIGN A FALSE CONFESSION LIKE YOUR COMRADES DID?

>> A LOT OF IT WAS MY FAITH.

I LIKE THE OTHERS, WE KEPT TELLING THE OFFICERS WHAT HAPPENED.

FOR ME, IT WAS THE STRANGE NIGHTMARE WHERE THEY KEPT SAYING WELL IS THIS WHERE YOU GOT THE JOGGER?

I DIDN'T KNOW WHAT THEY WERE TALKING ABOUT.

SOMETIMES THEY WOULD COME INTO THE ROOM I WAS IN AND TELL ME I WAS NEXT.

I WAS VERY AFRAID AND I DIDN'T KNOW WHAT WAS GOING TO HAPPEN BUT I KNEW THAT I HAD NOT HURT THE WOMAN.

I WAS THINKING I WAS THE GOOD GUY AND I WOULD GO TO THE POLICE DEPARTMENT AND TELL THEM WHAT I SAW AND I WOULD BE HOME BEFORE MY MOM GOT BACK AND I CAME HOME SEVEN YEARS LATER AND BECAUSE COREY WEISS WAS WITH ME HE CAME HOME 13 YEARS LATER.

BECAUSE COREY PERSEVERED AND WOULD STICK TO HIS INNOCENCE, THE REAL PERPETRATOR MET HIM AGAIN IN PRISON AND TOLD THE TRUTH.

>> JUST INCREDIBLE.

DID YOU FIND OUT WHAT MOTIVATED THE REAL CRIMINAL TO TELL THE TRUTH?

>> I THINK HIS WORDS WAS THAT HE HAD STARTED GOING TO CHURCH AND HE STARTED TO ATONE FOR THE CRIMES THAT HE DID AND THAT THE END OF HIS CRIME SPREE HE WAS TRYING TO KILL ALL OF HIS VICTIMS AND THE LAST VICTIM, THE YOUNG WOMAN, AS HE TELLS IT, HE CAME INTO HER HOME AND BRANDISHED A KNIFE.

SHE'S PREGNANT, SHE'S BIG PREGNANT.

SHE PLEADS WITH HIM, COULD YOU LET ME PUT MY BABIES IN THE NEXT ROOM?

SHE PUT THEM IN THE ROOM AND LOCKED THE DOOR AND I COULD ONLY IMAGINE SHE'S PROBABLY THINKING THIS WILL BE THE WORST THING THAT EVER HAPPENED TO ME BUT I WILL GET THROUGH IT.

HER HUSBAND WASN'T THERE, SHE WAS THERE WITH HER CHILDREN.

SHE IS PREGNANT.

HE STABBED HER TO DEATH.

HE KILLED HER AND HER UNBORN CHILD.

NOW, WHEN I THINK OF THAT, THAT SOME MONTHS AFTER THE CENTRAL PARK JOGGER CASE.

SHE COULD HAVE BEEN ALIVE HAD THE DETECTIVE SAID SOMETHING ISN'T ADDING UP.

THESE GUYS ARE TELLING FALSE NARRATIVES.

THIS ISN'T HOW IT HAPPENED, SOMETHING ELSE IS GOING ON HERE.

LET'S GO TO THE DRAWING BOARD AND LOOK AT THIS CASE WITH NEW EYES AND NEW INFORMATION.

>> YOU ARE A RELIGIOUS PERSON AND YOU HAVE BEEN SWORN IN.

YOU PUT YOUR HAND ON THE KORAN.

I ASKED YOU TO BRING IT BECAUSE I FIND IT DIPLOMATIC OF YOUR WHOLE EXPERIENCE.

NOT ONLY IS THE KORAN THERE TO REMIND US WHO GAVE IT TO YOU BUT THERE'S ALSO A COVER TO REMIND US HOW THE COVER CAME IN.

>> THIS CAUGHT ON THIS QURAN IS 35 YEARS OLD, THE FIRST THAT I WAS GIVEN BY MY MOTHER.

SHE GAVE THIS TO ME AND IF YOU LOOK AT THE OLD PHOTOS OF ME WALKING IN AND OUT OF THE COURTROOM, THIS IS THE KORAN I HAD WITH ME.

I WAS ABLE TO TAKE IT WITH ME INTO THE PRISON.

I READ THIS FOR THE FIRST TIME.

FROM THE FRONT, FROM THE BEGINNING.

I READ THIS FROM COVER TO COVER OVER AND OVER AGAIN.

I HAD HANDSEWN THE COVER BECAUSE WHAT HAPPENED, THIS QURAN IS VERY WORN AS YOU CAN IMAGINE .

THIS IS A QURAN , THE SPINE IS ALREADY SPLITTING BUT THROUGHOUT THIS QURAN , YOU WOULD SEE MY HAND, I WOULD UNDERLINE THINGS OR FOLD PAGES AND HIGHLIGHT THINGS AND WRITE THINGS IN THE SPINE.

THIS WAS A TRUE STUDY OF FAITH AND I THINK IT WAS ME TRYING TO UNDERSTAND HOW CAN I GROW THROUGH WHAT I AM TO GO THROUGH?

>> YOU READ A LOT OF MANDELA .

>> HE SAID, TO BE ANGRY AND BITTER IS LIKE DRINKING POISON AND EXPECTING YOUR ENEMY TO DIE.

I HAD TO DO JUST THAT BECAUSE I WAS ANGRY AND UPSET.

I DIDN'T UNDERSTAND HOW COULD THE SYSTEM RUN OVER US WITH THE SPIKE WHEELS OF JUSTICE?

AND RUN OVER US AGAIN AND LAY US OUT FLAT?

I COULDN'T UNDERSTAND IT.

WE WERE HOPING FOR AN APOLOGY.

WE WERE HOPING THAT A PERSON WHO BECAME THE FUTURE PRESIDENT OF THESE UNITED STATES WOULD EQUALLY SAY, YOU KNOW WHAT, I TOOK OUT AN AD IN 1989 CALLING FOR YOUR DEATH AND I'M SORRY.

I'M GOING TO TAKE OUT A FULL- PAGE AD AND CALL FOR AN APOLOGY FOR YOU ALL BUT INSTEAD HE DOUBLED DOWN.

>> WE ALL REMEMBER THESE ADS IN THE NEWSPAPERS CALLING FOR THE REINSTATEMENT OF THE DEATH PENALTY.

HE DOUBLED DOWN.

THEY ADMITTED THEIR GUILT.

NOW, I DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU THINK WHETHER IT'S KARMA, FAITH, OR WHATEVER THIS IS A TWICE INDICTED FELLOW, IMPEACHED RATHER, FOUR INDICTMENTS, 91 CHARGES, WHAT DO YOU THINK?

>> THIS IS A VERY CRAFTY INDIVIDUAL.

I SAY THIS BECAUSE THERE HAS BEEN A LOVE AFFAIR OF SORTS WITH DONALD TRUMP.

I REMEMBER, ONE OF MY MOST FAVORITE ARTIST, NAS, HE SAID IN ONE OF HIS SONGS, I WANT TO BE RICH LIKE DONALD TRUMP AND MARLA MAPLE .

HE CAME INTO THE ROOM THIS IS DONALD TRUMP THE REAL ESTATE MOGUL.

HE WAS EVERYWHERE AND ON EVERY PAGE.

I THINK THAT FOR HIM TO CRAFT WHAT IS GOING ON WITH HIM BY SAYING, HEY I AM JUST LIKE YOU, I AM INDICTED TO.

IT'S A SLAP IN THE FACE WHEN YOU THINK OF ALL THE THINGS THAT HAPPENS WITH THE INJUSTICE WE EXPERIENCE AND WHEN YOU HEAR HIM SAY THINGS LIKE, HEY LISTEN, I HAVE SOME GOLD SNEAKERS YOU COULD BUY.

AS IF WE COULD PUT THE SNEAKERS ON AND CLICK OUR HEELS AND SOMEHOW WALK DOWN THE YELLOW BRICK ROAD.

THESE ARE DISTRACTIONS THAT PULL US AWAY FROM WHAT WE ARE SUPPOSED TO BE FOCUSED ON.

WHEN I THINK OF ALL OF THIS, ALL OF IT WE HAVE TO SAY TO OURSELVES, WHAT WE DESERVE IS A COUNTRY IS THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA AND NOT DIVIDED STATES OF AMERICA.

>> YUSEF SALAAM THANK YOU SO MUCH INDEED.

>> MY PLEASURE THANK YOU.

>>> OUR NEXT GUEST SITS ON THE BOARD OF TWO ORGANIZATIONS DEDICATED TO HELPING PEOPLE LIKE YUSEF SALAAM WHO WERE WRONGLY INCARCERATED.

THE INNOCENCE PROJECT AND SATURNIAN MINISTRIES.

JOHN GRISHAM IS A BEST-SELLING AUTHOR AND HOUSEHOLD NAME AROUND THE WORLD AND HE CHANNELS HIS PASSION FOR JUSTICE THROUGH HIS LEGAL THRILLERS.

HE TEAMED UP WITH CENTURION MINISTRIES FOUNDER JIM McCLOSKEY FOR HIS NEXT BOOK.

THE RESULT IS "FRAMED, ASTONISHING TRUE STORIES OF WRONGFUL CONVICTIONS."

HE TALKS ABOUT THE CONSEQUENCE OF A FAIR TRIAL, A DEATH PENALTY, THE FLAWS OF INTERROGATION.

>> THANK YOU HIM A WELCOME TO THE SHOW.

>> 50 NUMBER ONE BEST-SELLING NOVELS THAT YOU HAVE WRITTEN, ALL FICTION BUT 20 YEARS AGO YOU WROTE A PIECE OF NONFICTION CALLED THE INNOCENT MAN ABOUT A BASEBALL PLAYER WRONGFULLY CONVICTED.

NOW YOU HAVE GONE BACK TO THIS AGAIN, YOU'VE GONE BACK TO DOING A NONFICTION BOOK ABOUT PEOPLE WRONGLY CONVICTED.

WHY?

>> WHY?

IT'S THE SAME REASON AS THE NOVELS, A GREAT STORY.

ALL GREAT STORIES.

EVERY WRONGFUL CONVICTION IS FROM A PURE STELLA TORI STORYTELLING POINT OF VIEW.

HUMAN SUFFERING, ANYTIME YOU'VE GOT GREAT HUMAN SUFFERING YOU'VE GOT GREAT STORIES AND GREAT FICTION AND NONFICTION IT BECAUSE OF THE INJUSTICE, THE PERSEVERANCE, ALL THE ELEMENTS ARE THERE, THE SENSE OF LOSS THEY HAVE AFTER SPENDING 20 YEARS AND 30 YEARS, THE STORIES, I AM DRAWN TO THESE STORIES.

>> ARE THEY CONNECTED TO YOUR FICTION?

REDEMPTION IS A THEME IN SOME OF THESE.

>> THAT'S WHAT I'M READING THESE DAYS.

I'M ON BOARD OF THE INNOCENCE PROJECT AND NOW CENTURION MINISTRIES , THESE ADVOCACY'S.

I DEAL WITH THE CASES AND READ ABOUT THESE CASES ALL THE TIME AND AS ADVOCATES WE TAKE ON THESE CASES AND WE HAVE CASES GOING ON ALL THE TIME AND HAVE WORKED WITH THEM FOR YEARS AND I'M FAMILIAR WITH THE CASES AND IF I'M LUCKY I WILL MEET THE EXONERATIONS WHEN THEY ARE OUT AND THAT'S THE FUN PART.

ONCE THEY SURVIVE THE NIGHTMARES MOST OF US CANNOT BEGIN TO COMPREHEND.

THEY ARE INCREDIBLE PEOPLE WITH INCREDIBLE STORIES.

>> THERE'S NEWS THIS WEEK, HE TESTIFIED IN A TEXAS CASE ALONG WITH DOCTOR PHIL McGRAW, ROBERT ROBERTSON WAS THE CASE AND YOU HAD BEEN ABLE TO GET IT SO THAT HE WASN'T EXECUTED.

>> I DIDN'T DOING ANYTHING.

I MAY HAVE BROUGHT ATTENTION TO THE CASE.

HE WAS SCHEDULED TO DIE LAST THURSDAY AT 6:00 P.M. WE HAD KNOWN THIS FOR MONTHS AND AS THE CLOCK COUNTED DOWN AND I GOT TO KNOW THE LAWYERS INVOLVED THERE WAS A TREMENDOUS FLURRY OF ACTIVITY TO STOP THE EXECUTION.

IT WASN'T GOING TO BE STOPPED.

WITHOUT THE GOVERNOR MIGHT DO IT BUT HE WASN'T GOING TO DO IT.

THE COURTS WEREN'T GOING TO HELP.

AT THE LAST MINUTE THIS HOUSE COMMITTEE ON CRIMINAL JURIES PRUDENCE PULLED A FAST ONE, A BIPARTISAN COMMITTEE THAT WAS SO OUTRAGED AT THE ROBERTSON CASE AND THE FACT TEXAS HAD NOT STOPPED THE EXECUTION THAT THEY WERE HAVING HEARINGS ON WEDNESDAY AND THURSDAY AND ISSUED A SUBPOENA FOR ROBERTSON WHO HAD BEEN ON DEATH ROW FOR 20 YEARS TO APPEAR BEFORE THE SUBCOMMITTEE ON OCTOBER 21 AND HE WAS SUPPOSED TO BE EXECUTED ON OCTOBER 17 SO IT WAS A CLEVER MOVE ON THEIR PART AND IT WAS A HAIL MARY AND IT WORKED.

THESE TEXAS LAWMAKERS ARE ABSOLUTE HEROES.

THEY SAVED HIS LIFE LAST THURSDAY NIGHT AND THE EXECUTION NOW IS AT LEAST 90 DAYS AWAY AND THE LAWYERS ARE SCRAMBLING TO GET IN COURT.

A FASCINATING STORY AND ONE MORE REASON TO ARGUE THERE'S NO ROOM FOR THE DEATH PENALTY IN THIS COUNTRY THE WAY IT IS APPLIED AND USED.

IT'S SO UNFAIR AND IT ENSNARES INNOCENT PEOPLE.

>> YOU TALKED ABOUT PEOPLE WHO ENDED UP HAVING COMMITTED THE CRIMES THAT OTHERS WERE ACCUSED OF AND SOME OF THEM WERE HORRENDOUS AND YOU SAID THERE'S NO ROOM FOR THE DEATH PENALTY THE WAY IT HAS BEEN APPLIED IN THIS COUNTRY.

DO YOU THINK THAT THERE IS SOME RATIONALE FOR THE DEATH PENALTY AT ALL?

>> WELL, FROM A MORAL POINT OF VIEW I'M NOT IN FAVOR OF THE DEATH PENALTY WE CAN ALL AGREE KILLING IS WRONG SO WHY DO WE ALLOW THE STATE TO KILL?

I DON'T THINK THERE'S ANY ROOM IN OUR SOCIETY FOR KILLING PEOPLE.

BUT I AM IN THE MINORITY IN THE COUNTRY AND I DIDN'T GROW UP WITH THAT FEELING OR BELIEF AND I WOULD TELL MY FRIENDS WHO FAVOR CAPITAL PUNISHMENT THAT YOU CANNOT FAVOR THIS SYSTEM BUT IF YOU WANTED TO DO THIS AND HAVE A TRULY FAIR CAPITAL PUNISHMENT SYSTEM THERE'S A WAY TO DESIGN ONE WHICH INSURES THAT ALL OF THE TRIALS ARE FAIR.

THE ROBERTSON CASE IN TEXAS IS A PERFECT EXAMPLE OF A TRIAL THAT WAS GROSSLY UNFAIR.

HE NEVER HAD A CHANCE.

YOU COULD PROVIDE FOR FAIR TRIALS AND AS AMERICANS WE AT LEAST PAY LIP SERVICE TO THE NOTION OF FAIR TRIALS.

WHEN I WAS A YOUNG LAWYER I ALWAYS THOUGHT WE'D HAVE A FAIR TRIAL I LOST MOST OF MY TRIALS BUT I WAS FIGHTING FOR SOMETHING AND FIGHTING FOR A FAIR TRIAL AND IF WE COULD ENSURE THE FAIR TRIALS WE WOULD NOT SEE SO MANY WRONGFUL CONVICTIONS SO I AM OPPOSED TO IT BUT I RESPECT THE OPINIONS OF THOSE PEOPLE THAT ARE STILL IN FAVOR OF IT.

I DON'T AGREE WITH THEM.

THERE IS A WAY TO DO IT BETTER.

>> TELL ME ABOUT JIM McCLOSKEY, YOUR CO-AUTHOR, HOW DID YOU HOOK UP WITH HIM AND HOW DID YOU DIVIDE OUT THE ROLE IN THE BOOK?

>> I MET HIM 15 YEARS AGO.

JIM FOUNDED CENTURION 40 YEARS AGO.

HE WAS A DIVINITY STUDENT AT PRINCETON WHEN HE GOT INTO THIS WORK.

HE WAS NAMED AS CENTURION MINISTRIES, AND ADMISSIONS ADVOCACY LITIGATION GROUP.

IN 40 YEARS JIM AND CENTURION HAS WALKED OUT 71 INNOCENT PEOPLE.

71 AND COMBINED THEY SPENT OVER 1500 YEARS IN PRISON.

HE IS A TRUE AMERICAN HERO AND HE ASKED ME TO COME TO PRINCETON FOR THE ANNUAL FAMILY WEEKEND WHEN ALL OF THEIR EXONERATIONS CAME BACK INTO TOWN TO CELEBRATE, THEY BRING THEIR FAMILIES, MOTHERS AND WIVES.

THEY ARE THERE TO CELEBRATE FREEDOM AND IT'S AN EMOTIONAL TIME AND IT'S VERY MOVING.

IT'S A GREAT WEEKEND.

JIM ASKED ME 15 YEARS AGO TO GO TO PRINCETON AND COME TO PRINCETON THAT WEEKEND AND SPEAK AND HANG OUT AND I WAS THERE WITH BRIAN DUNN HE.

BUT HOW I WAS ABLE TO MEET JIM.

HE IS A WONDERFUL HUMAN BEING AND ONE OF MY HEROES IN LIFE.

>> THE FIRST STORY YOU TELL IN THE BOOK IS THAT OF THE MURDER OF MICHELLE BOSCO.

HE WROTE OF THE CASE THAT IT IS ONE OF THE GREATEST TRAIN WRECKS IN THE HISTORY OF AMERICAN CRIMINAL JUSTICE.

WHAT HAPPENED?

>> SHE WAS MURDERED IN HER APARTMENT IN NORFOLK VIRGINIA.

ALL OF THESE YOUNG SAILORS LIVED IN THE SAME COMMUNITY IN NORFOLK.

THE RAPIST MURDERER WAS A MAN POLICE SHOULD HAVE BEEN ONTO.

HE WAS GUILTY OF OTHER SEXUAL ASSAULTS IN THE SAME AREA BEFORE THIS ONE AND RIGHT AFTER THIS ONE.

HE NEVER STOPPED AND HE WAS UNDER THEIR NOSE.

WHILE THE POLICE WERE AT THE CRIME SCENE GATHERING EVIDENCE, DOING THE PROPER JOB WITH THE TECHNICIANS AND ALL THAT, THE CRIME SCENE INVESTIGATORS WHILE THEY WERE DOING IN THE WORK FOR HOURS, HE DID A GREAT JOB AND DECIDED RIGHT THEN THERE WAS A SOUL PERPETRATOR AND ONE PERSON DID THIS.

THERE WAS BLOOD, YOU KNOW, A LOT OF EVIDENCE AND WHILE THEY WERE DOING THAT THE DETECTIVES OUTSIDE OF THE APARTMENT WERE SCREWING UP THE CASE.

THEY ZEROED IN ON A NEIGHBOR, ANOTHER SAILOR THAT THEY THOUGHT WAS ACTING SUSPICIOUS AND THEY THOUGHT MAYBE HE SHOULD BE THE KILLER SO THEY ASKED HIM TO COME TO THE POLICE STATION FOR AN INTERROGATION AND KEPT HIM FOR 15 HOURS AND VERBALLY BROKE HIM DOWN.

HE FINALLY GAVE THIS INCREDIBLE CONFESSION THAT MATCHED WITH NONE OF THE PHYSICAL EVIDENCE A CLASSIC CASE OF A FALSE CONFESSION.

THAT WAS JUST THE BEGINNING.

THEY WENT ON AND ON AND WHEN THE DNA CAME BACK FROM THE ORIGINAL PERPETRATOR, THEY IGNORED THAT.

ONE TIME, BY THE TIME THEY CAUGHT THE KILLER THERE WERE SEVEN U.S.

SAILORS LOCKED UP CHARTS WITH CAPITAL MURDER ALL OF WHOM HAD BEEN EXCLUDED BY DNA AND NONE OF WHOM HAD CRIMINAL RECORDS OTHER THAN A DUI CHARGE AND MOST OF THEM WERE BOY SCOUTS WERE EAGLE SCOUTS.

20-YEAR-OLD SAILORS SERVING THEIR COUNTRY IN JAIL IN NORFOLK VIRGINIA CHARGED WITH CAPITAL MURDER.

A GARGANTUAN TRAIN WRECK WHICH WAS CAUSED SOLELY BY THE POLICE.

>> AND IT WAS CAUSED BY INTERROGATION.

I MEAN IT'S ONE OF THE THEMES IN THE BOOK, INTERROGATION IS OFTEN THE LAZY COPS WAY OF SOLVING A CASE .

WHY DO THEY GET SO MANY FALSE CONFESSIONS?

>> BECAUSE PEOPLE CAN BE VULNERABLE.

NOT EVERYONE IS AS STRONG AS YOU OR ME .

EVERYONE SAYS WELL I WOULD NEVER CONFESS TO SOMETHING SO TERRIBLE.

ONE OF THE NORTH LOOK FOUR SAILORS TOLD ME WHEN THEY WERE OUT OF PRISON AND THEY WERE EXONERATED.

I WAS HANGING OUT WITH THEM.

ONE OF THEM SAID DURING THE INTERROGATION THAT WENT ON FOR 15 HOURS WITH NO FRIEND INSIDE, NO LAWYER, NOTHING.

HE SAID I WOULD HAVE CONFESSED TO KILLING MY MOTHER JUST TO GET OUT OF THE ROOM IT WAS SO HORRIBLE AND THAT'S WHAT THE POLICE, NOT MANY BUT SOME, THEY KNOW HOW TO VERBALLY BREAKDOWN THE SUSPECTS OVER A LONG PERIOD OF TIME ALL IN A NIGHT.

ALL WITHOUT THE BENEFIT OF A VIDEO CAMERA ON.

THEY BREAK THEM DOWN.

THEY USE ALL OF THESE DIRTY TRICKS THEY WILL SAY YEAH, YOUR TWO BUDDIES, YOUR CODEFENDANTS HAVE CONFESSED AND THEY ARE BLAMING YOU.

THEY COULD LIE IT WILL AND LIE EXCESSIVELY.

THEY COULD TELL ALL UTILIZE THAT THEY WANT.

OUR SUPREME COURT SAID THEY COULD DO THAT AND THEY DO IT ALL THE TIME.

>> A LOT OF THE INNOCENCE PROJECT DEALT WITH DNA EVIDENCE COMING IN BUT MUCH OF THIS BOOK AND MUCH OF WHAT MR. McCLUSKEY DOES IS USE OTHER KINDS OF RESIDENCE, TELL ME ABOUT THAT.

>> VERY FEW MURDERS ACTUALLY HAVE DNA.

MOST MURDERS DO NOT HAVE DNA .

MOST DO NOT INVOLVE A SEXUAL ASSAULTS SO YOU DON'T HAVE SOME KIND OF FLUID LEFT BEHIND.

YOU DON'T HAVE DNA SO WHAT JIM McCLOSKEY DID YEARS AGO WITH GO TO THE SCENE OF THE CRIME.

YOU GET THE POLICE REPORT THE TRIAL TRANSCRIPTS, HE WOULD IMMERSE HIMSELF IN THE CASE AND KNEW EVERYTHING PRESENTED IN COURT AND LOOK AT THE POLICE REPORTS TO START FINDING DISCREPANCIES IN WHAT THE WITNESSES SAY AND WOULD KNOCK ON DOORS AND SOME OF THE WORST NEIGHBORHOODS IN AMERICA AND SAY, HEY I'M SO-AND-SO, 15 YEARS AGO YOU TESTIFIED AGAINST THIS GUY IN PRISON CAN WE TALK ABOUT YOUR TESTIMONY?

HE WOULD BEGIN BUILDING TRUST WITH THE WITNESSES, MANY OF WHOM HAD LIED YEARS AGO.

HE WOULD SLOWLY PUT TOGETHER A CASE.

IT WAS REMARKABLE WORK.

JIM TOLD ME THE AVERAGE CASE ONCE HE TOOK THE CASE THEY HAD TO TURN DOWN MOST OF THEM, AND 3-5 YEARS INVESTIGATING WHETHER OR NOT THEY WOULD TAKE THE CASE AND WHEN THEY TOOK THE CASE IT WOULD TAKE 10 MORE YEARS TO WIN THE CASE AND EXONERATE AND SPEND ABOUT $300,000 OF MONEY THEY DIDN'T HAVE.

THEY HAVE TO RAISE THE MONEY SO IT'S DIFFICULT TO GET SOMEONE OUT OF PRISON WHEN THEY ARE IN AND IT'S EASY TO CONVINCE SOMEBODY IF THE POLICE WANT TO PUT TOGETHER A CASE INVOLVING JAILHOUSE SNITCHES WHO ARE LYING, BOGUS SIGNS, THINGS LIKE THAT AND YOU COULD GET A CONVICTION.

IT'S A MOST IMPOSSIBLE TO GET SOMEONE OUT.

SO JIM DID THIS THE HARD WAY WITHOUT DNA.

HE DID THIS WITH KNOCKING ON DOORS AND BUILDING TRUST.

>> THERE IS OTHER PHYSICAL EVIDENCE THAT SOMETIMES IS USED , AND THE KENNEDY BOROUGH CASE YOU WROTE ABOUT BITE MARKS.

HOW GOOD IS THAT AS THE TYPE OF PHYSICAL EVIDENCE AND DO WE HAVE STANDARDS FOR THAT?

>> IT'S TERRIBLY INACCURATE.

WHEN YOU'VE GOT A BITE MARK ANALYSIS WHICH HAS BEEN OUTLAWED IN A MOST EVERY JURISDICTION.

A HAIR ANALYSIS, A BOOT MARK ANALYSIS, BLOOD SPATTER ANALYSIS, THESE ARE ALL DUBIOUS TYPES OF SCIENCE, NOT REALLY SCIENCE, NOT BASED IN SCIENCE BUT THEY'VE BEEN USED FOR YEARS LIKE THE SHAKEN BABY SYNDROME, THEY ARE USED AGGRESSIVELY BY U.S.

PROSECUTORS FOR DECADES AND THAT'S WHY WE'VE GOT SO MANY INNOCENT PEOPLE IN PRISON.

THE BLOOD OF BAD SCIENCE IN THE COURTROOMS.

ONE OF THE GOALS OF THE INNOCENCE PROJECT AND OF CENTURION IS TO PASS A NATIONAL STANDARD OF FORENSIC SCIENCE TO CLEAN UP THE COURTROOMS AND TO REQUIRE EXPERTS BE BASED IN SCIENCE, EXPERT OPINIONS THAT ARE BASED IN SCIENCE BEFORE THEY ARE SHOWN TO THE JURY.

WE DO A LOUSY JOB OF SCREENING AHEAD OF TIME AND YOU PAY THE PRICE FOR THE WRONGFUL CONVICTIONS IN MISSISSIPPI INVOLVING AUGUST BITE MARK TESTIMONY THAT WAS PROVEN TO BE CONCLUSIVELY WRONG.

>> MUCH OF WHAT WE HAVE LEARNED FROM STORIES IN THIS BOOK.

>> IF YOU EVER SUSPECT THE POLICE SUSPECT YOU OF A CRIME , CALL A LAWYER IMMEDIATELY AND DON'T TALK TO THEM.

THAT'S THE GOLDEN RULE RIGHT THERE AND IF YOU THINK YOU'LL BE INTERROGATED OR YOU SUSPECT IT, GO SEE A LAWYER AND CALL A LAWYER.

BEYOND THAT, PRACTICAL ADVICE, WE HOPE PEOPLE COULD READ THE STORIES AND REALIZE THAT THERE'S A LOT OF INNOCENT PEOPLE IN PRISON AND THAT THIS COULD HAPPEN TO ANYONE.

THESE AREN'T JUST STREET KIDS WHO GOT IN TROUBLE.

JOE BRIAN SPENT 35 YEARS IN PRISON IN TEXAS AND WAS A HIGH SCHOOL PRINCIPAL WITH TWO COLLEGE DEGREES SO THIS COULD HAPPEN TO A LOT OF PEOPLE.

WE HOPE PEOPLE REALIZE THE STORIES, YOU NEED TO BE SUSPICIOUS.

LET'S QUESTION THESE AUTHORITIES.

DON'T JUST ACCEPT WHAT THEY SAY, OKAY?

IT'S OKAY TO BE SKEPTICAL.

AND, YOU KNOW, BEYOND THAT ISN'T ENTERTAINMENT BUT THIS RAISES AWARENESS.

>> WHAT CHANGES DO YOU THINK IN THE CRIMINAL JUSTICE SYSTEM THERE SHOULD BE?

>> WE HAVE A PACKAGE FOR LEGISLATION THAT THE INNOCENCE PROJECT FILES EVERY YEAR IN ALL 50 STATES .

WE MAKE SLOW-SLOW PROGRESS.

IT'S VERY SLOW.

FOR EXAMPLE, THE HUGE PROBLEM, PAID INFORMANTS, INCENTIVIZED INFORMANTS, THERE'S A WAY TO HANDLE THOSE PEOPLE THAT MOST OTHER COUNTRIES HANDLE BETTER WITH SEPARATE HEARINGS, INVESTIGATION INTO THE TESTIMONY.

IT'S A HUGE CURSE ON THE CRIMINAL JUSTICE SYSTEM IN AMERICA BUT JUNK SCIENCE, WE COULD IMPROVE OUR FORENSIC STANDARDS AND REQUIRE POLICE TO VIDEO INTERROGATIONS.

THE VIDEOCAMERAS ARE RIGHT THERE IN THE ROOM.

THEY'VE USED THEM THE LAST 15 MINUTES WHEN THEY FINALLY BREAK DOWN.

VIDEO, IF YOU DON'T WANT PEOPLE TO SEE IT, WE SHOULD PREVENT POLICE FROM LYING AT WILL TO THE SUSPECTS DURING THEIR INTERROGATIONS.

THE LIES ARE INCREDIBLE.

WE SHOULD TIGHTEN UP THE EDIFICATION, IT'S A HUGE PROBLEM IN LAWFUL CONDITIONS CONVICTIONS.

WE HAVE A WHOLE PACKAGE OF WAYS TO IMPROVE THE SYSTEM AND WE ARE MAKING PROGRESS.

>> JOHN GRISHAM, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

>> THANK YOU WALTER, MY PLEASURE, GOOD TO SEE YOU AGAIN.

>>> A STORY OF HOPE FROM THE HORRORS OF WAR.

A DOCUMENTARY SEIZE THE SUMMIT , THE SURVIVORS UNITED IN A COMMON GOAL TO STAND UP TO WAR AND TO SHARE THEIR MESSAGE WITH THE WORLD.

THE DOCUMENTARY'S DIRECTOR JOINS ME NOW FROM NEW YORK.

IT'S SO GOOD TO SEE YOU AND FOR THOSE WHO KNOW YOUR WORK HERE AT CNN, YOU SPENT SO MUCH TIME AS A SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT THEN HE LEFT TO WORK ON HUMANITARIAN WORK AND WE SAW YOU ON THE AIR OVER THE LAST YEAR OBVIOUSLY DOING EXTENSIVE WORK COVERING THE WAR IN GAZA AND NOW THIS IS YOUR FIRST DOCUMENTARY IN THE FIRST FILM IS THE DIRECTOR AND PRODUCER.

TALK TO US ABOUT THE PROJECT AND WHAT YOU DECIDED TO DO IT.

>> THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR HAVING ME ON.

IT WAS ONE OF THOSE PROJECTS WHERE BECAUSE I SPENT SO MANY YEARS IN WAR ZONES, WHEN YOU ARE OUT THERE IN THE FIELD YOU WITNESS THESE MOMENTS IN THESE INTERACTIONS AND CONVERSATIONS WHICH TAKE PLACE AND YOU'RE NEVER ABLE TO FULLY CAPTURE THEM ON CAMERA.

I FELT AS IF THERE WAS SOMETHING THAT WAS MISSING.

I WANTED THE OPPORTUNITY TO FILM THE DOCUMENTARY THAT EMERGED IN FRONT OF ME.

IT WAS ONE OF THOSE MOMENTS OF, DO I TAKE A MASSIVE RISK TO GO OUT AND DO THIS?

THE FIRST TIME, FIRST RODEO, SIX COUNTRIES IN THE SAME LOGISTICS AND ULTIMATELY IT WAS YES, SOMETHING OF A NO-BRAINER FIRST OF ALL BECAUSE I'M MORE AFRAID OF LIVING WITH REGRET THAT I AM OF TAKING RISKS AND FAILING AND ALSO BECAUSE I COULD SEE WHAT I HOPE WILL BE THE VALUE IN THIS DOCUMENTARY AND IN TELLING THE STORY OF WHAT IT MEANS TO SURVIVE WAR IN THIS WAY AND HOPEFULLY IT WILL BE MORE ACCESSIBLE TO A MORE BROAD AUDIENCE.

>> I'M SO GLAD YOU BROUGHT US THIS PIECE AND THESE FOUR EXTRAORDINARY, I MEAN THESE HEROES, THE SURVIVORS, IT'S NOT ENOUGH.

THERE ARE SOME OF THE STRONGEST PEOPLE YOU WOULD ENCOUNTER.

THEY ARE YOUNG WAR SURVIVORS WHO ARE TRAUMATIZED, THESE FOUR THEY TAKE ON ANOTHER CHALLENGE IN CLIMBING KILIMANJARO.

TALK TO US ABOUT THESE FOUR EXTRAORDINARY CHARACTERS WHICH COME TOGETHER AND IF YOU COULD FOLLOW AS TO WHY KILIMANJARO.

>> SO, THESE FOUR, YOU HAVE ONE CHARACTER WHO WAS 14 WHEN HE WAS SHOT IN THE SPINE IN SYRIA AND HE'S BEEN WHEELCHAIR- BOUND SINCE.

HE MANAGED TO EMERGE FROM A DEEP DEPRESSION AND USED SPORTS TO TRY AND MOVE HIMSELF FORWARD.

HE HAS THIS EXTRAORDINARY MESSAGE TO THE WORLD WHICH IS NOTHING IS IMPOSSIBLE.

ANOTHER CHARACTER WHO WAS FROM SYRIA, SHE ENDS UP AS SHE'S GOING UP THE MOUNTAIN HAVING TO CONFRONT, SHE THOUGHT SHE HAD GONE THROUGH.

ANOTHER CHARACTER WHO IS FROM AFGHANISTAN IS COPING WITH HAVING TO HAVE BEEN FORCED TO FLEE AFGHANISTAN BECAUSE HER MOTHER WAS THREATENED AND KILLED THE TALIBAN.

HER MOTHER IS A JOURNALIST AND SHE ENDS UP HAVING TO WALK TO EUROPE FROM TURKEY TO GERMANY AND FINALLY YOU'VE GOT TONYA WHO IS FROM UKRAINE AND SPENT SIX WEEKS HIDING OUT IN A VEGETABLE SELLER IN HER VILLAGE NOT TOO FAR AWAY FROM HER KEITH THAT IS ACTUALLY TO THIS DAY UNDER CONSTANT BOMBARDMENT.

THE THING IS, WHEN YOU TALK TO ALL OF THEM EVEN THOUGH THE WORLD DEFINES THEM TO A DEGREE HAS REFUGEES BECAUSE THAT'S WHAT HAPPENING IS YOU FOR YOUR COUNTRY THEY ARE SO MUCH MORE.

THAT WAS PART OF WHY THEY WANTED TO BE PART OF THIS.

THEY WANTED TO SHOW JUST BECAUSE YOU ARE GOING THROUGH WAR AND YOU ARE BRANDED A REFUGEE, YOUR LIFE ISN'T ONE- DIMENSIONAL, YOUR PERSONALITY ISN'T ONE-DIMENSIONAL.

THERE ARE COMMONALITIES WE HAVE.

THIS FELT VERY IMPORTANT ESPECIALLY NOW, TO GET THE MESSAGE OUT THERE GIVEN HOW DIVIDED OUR WORLD IS AT THIS STAGE.

>> GOING BACK TO THE THEME HERE IN CLIMBING KILIMANJARO AND TAKING ON YET ANOTHER CHALLENGE, SEEING REFUGEES THROUGH A DIFFERENT LENS.

>> IT IS AND PART OF THAT IS ME.

I BEGAN DOING MOUNTAINS IN 2018 AS A WAY TO CLEAR MY OWN HEAD FROM THE WAR AND MISERY REPORTING I HAD BEEN DOING.

I FOUND THE MOUNTAIN HELPED ME.

IT MAY SOUND BIZARRE.

THE JOB ITSELF WAS PSYCHOLOGICALLY AND PHYSICALLY INTENSE AND SUBJECTING YOURSELF TO SOMETHING LIKE UNDERTAKING THIS LEVEL OF INTENSE OF AN EXPEDITION TEACHES YOU THINGS ABOUT YOURSELF THAT YOU DIDN'T NECESSARILY KNOW.

IT CHANGES YOU IN A WAY OR ANOTHER.

IN SOME WAYS I WANTED TO GET THAT EXPERIENCE TO THESE FOUR AND TO ALSO HAVE OTHER PEOPLE BE ABLE TO WITNESS THE POWER OF THE MOUNTAIN AND THE POWER OF NATURE AND ITS TRANSFORMATIVE POWER AS WELL.

KILIMANJARO IS ONE OF THE SEVEN SUMMITS AND A WELL-KNOWN MOUNTAIN.

IT CAME TOGETHER IN TERMS OF THE EXPEDITION.

IT WAS ORGANIZED BY MY CHARITY AND THE PROCEEDS FROM THE DOCUMENTARY ARE GOING TO BE GOING TO MY CHARITY.

>> NO DOUBT YOU CHANGED THESE FOUR LIVES FOR THE BETTER WITH THIS EXPERIENCE AS ARDUOUS AS IT IS.

LET'S MEET SOME OF THESE EXTRAORDINARY PEOPLE AND PLAY A CLIP.

>> LIFE GOES ON.

YOU HEAR IT AS A THROWAWAY LINE BUT TO HEAR THIS COMING FROM HIM, YOU TAKE IT IN DIFFERENTLY.

TELLING HIM FROM THE FILM, HE'S A VERY MEMORABLE PERSON.

TELL US ABOUT HIM.

>> HE REALLY IS .

HE HAD A CHOICE.

THE CHOICE WAS EITHER, SUBMIT TO THESE INJURIES OR TO FIGHT THE TRAJECTORY THE INJURY HAD PUT HIS LIFE ON.

HE CHOSE TO FIGHT.

IT'S NOT TO SAY IT'S EASY OR THAT THIS CAME TO HIM EASILY.

HE REALLY HAD TO STRUGGLE AND ON THE MOUNTAIN WHAT HE HAD TO STRUGGLE WITH, BECAUSE HE FORCED HIMSELF TO BE SO FIERCELY INDEPENDENT WAS ACCEPTING THAT HE NEEDED HELP FROM OTHERS.

HE'S REALLY MADE THIS HIS MISSION PRIOR TO KILIMANJARO AND ESPECIALLY POST KILIMANJARO, TO REALLY RAISE AWARENESS AMONG PEOPLE, IF YOU SET YOUR EYE ON SOMETHING, YOU SET A GOAL FOR YOURSELF, IT'S SOMETHING WE CAN ALL RELATE TO.

IF YOU'VE GOT THAT DETERMINATION, THAT WILLPOWER, YOU COULD DO IT.

THE MESSAGES ULTIMATELY, LOOK, LOOK AT MY PAST AND WHAT I'VE BEEN THROUGH.

I AM WHEELCHAIR-BOUND.

I AM STILL SETTING GOALS AND I'M STILL GOING FOR IT.

THE MESSAGE THAT THEY ALL HAVE, YOU KNOW, EVEN THOUGH LIFE HAS TAUGHT US LOSS AND HEARTBREAK AND HORROR AND FEAR, WE ARE STILL ALIVE.

WE ARE STILL LIVING.

WE WANT TO LIVE AND THE WAR CANNOT TAKE THIS AWAY FROM US.

>> YOU HAD LANGUAGE BARRIERS .

YOU NEEDED INTERPRETERS.

THE FACT THAT THE SURVIVORS AND REFUGEES DIDN'T KNOW EACH OTHER BEFORE AND THE BONDING THAT YOU HAVE SEEN BETWEEN THEM, IT'S JUST SOMETHING BEAUTIFUL.

IT'S A SMALL SLIVER OF HOPE.

THE POSSIBILITY OF OTHER REFUGEES HAVING EXPERIENCES LIKE THIS TO BEING SEEN AS HUMAN AND NOT JUST SURVIVORS FROM WHATEVER WAR-TORN COUNTRY THEY ARE FROM.

COULD ASK YOU FINALLY WHAT YOU LEARNED?

SOMETHING THAT MIGHT SURPRISE YOU FROM THIS EXPERIENCE AND FROM THESE FOUR?

>> THROUGHOUT THE EXPERIENCE, I LEARNED I AM A LOT MORE EMOTIONAL AND SENSITIVE THAN I LIKE TO PUBLICLY ADMIT.

I LEARNED TO A CERTAIN DEGREE I NEED TO PERHAPS RESPECT MY OWN LIMITATIONS.

THEY COLLECTIVELY TAUGHT ME A LOT AND INDIVIDUALLY TAUGHT ME A LOT AND IF WE LOOK AT SORT OF THE OVERARCHING MESSAGE IT DOES GO BACK TO AND ACTUALLY, IT'S ANOTHER AUTHORS QUOTE.

THE QUOTE GOES SOMETHING LIKE, FOR HAPPINESS ONE NEED STABILITY BUT JOY COULD SPRING FROM THE CLIFFS OF DESPAIR AND WATCHING THESE FOUR CREATE AND ACTUALLY LIVE IN THESE MOMENTS OF JOY AND THAT THEY STILL HAVE THAT INSIDE OF THEM DESPITE EVERYTHING THAT THEY'VE BEEN THROUGH ALSO HELPED ME TO A CERTAIN DEGREE.

I WAS ABLE TO RECAPTURE SOME OF MY OWN.

>> THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

>> THAT'S IT FOR THE PROGRAM TONIGHT IF YOU WANT TO FIND OUT WHAT'S GOING EACH NIGHT CENTER FOR THE NEWSLETTER.

PBS.ORG/AMANPOUR.