>> NOW.

>>> OUR NEXT GUEST HAS WON THE PRESTIGIOUS HANNAH ARENDT PRICE --AFTER A VERY PUBLIC SPAT.

AUTHOR AND STAFF WRITER OF THE NEW YORKER MASHA GESSEN FACED --AFTER CARING GAZA TO JEWISH GHETTOS IN THE ERA.

CRITICAL THOUGHT AT THIS TIME.

>> THANK YOU, CHRISTIANE.

MASHA GESSEN, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US AGAIN.

>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.

>> YOU ALREADY FAMILIAR FACE AND VOICE HERE ON THIS PROGRAM.

A LOT OF PEOPLE ARE FAMILIAR WITH YOUR WORK.

THERE IS ONE PIECE WE WANTED TO TALK ABOUT, A PIECE THAT MANY PEOPLE MAY HAVE SEEN BY NOW.

THE TITLE OF YOUR PIECE WAS "THE SHADOW OF POLITICS: HOW -- " YOU REFLECTED ON THE POLITICS OF MEMORY, WHICH HAVE BECOME THE POLICY OF MEMORY.

I JUST WANTED TO ASK YOU WHAT ARE THE POLITICS OF MEMORY?

WHAT DID YOU MEAN BY THAT.

>> I STARTED OUT REPORTING IN GERMANY IN THE POLITICS OF MEMORY IN THERE, AND THEN I MENTION PULL A LITTLE BIT.

WHAT I'M WRITING ABOUT IS THE WAY IN WHICH THE HOLOCAUST IS WIELDED TO PUT A VERY BLUNTLY, TO TURN ISRAEL INTO A FOREVER VICTIM THAT IS UNASSAILABLE.

AND TO TURN OFF ANY CRITICISM --AND IN 4 FOUND, NOT JUST THE SILENCE CRITICISM -- IN GAZA.

>> I TAKE IT YOUR VIEWS OF THIS DID NOT START WITH GOSAR.

HOW DID YOU THINK THIS STARTED.

>> THIS, FOR OBVIOUS REASONS, THE CENTER, OR AT LEAST ONE OF THE CENTERS OF THIS MEMORY POLITICS.

IN GERMANY, OVER THE LAST FEW YEARS, IT DID NOT START YESTERDAY.

THE WHOLE MACHINERY OF ANTI- SEMITISM BUREAUCRACY HAS SHOWN UP.

ONE OF THE PRECIPITATING FACTORS IS THIS RESOLUTION, AND IT SOUNDS VERY OBSCURE, BUT IT'S HAD A HUGE INFLUX.

THERE IS, RATHER OR NOT THE REVOLUTION OR THE DEFINITION OF ANTI-SEMITISM THAT WAS WRITTEN BY THE INTERNATIONAL HOLOCAUST REMEMBRANCE ASSOCIATION.

THIS IS A NONGOVERNMENTAL ORGANIZATION IN THIS DEFINITION HAS NO LEGAL COURSE PER SE.

BUT IT'S INTERPRETED IN SUCH A WAY AS TO BASICALLY FRAME ANY CRITICISM OF THE STATE OF ISRAEL AND, IMPORTANTLY TO MY PIECE, ANY COMPARISON OF ISRAELI POLICIES TO THOSE OF THE NAZIS AS ANTI-SOMATIC.

THIS DEFINITION OF ANTI- SEMITISM IS USED BY THIS ANTI- ANTI-SEMITISM TO SILENCE ANY CRITICISM.

IT'S HAD A PERMIT -- SO MUCH OF THE ALL HIS PRODUCTION.

AND BASICALLY ANYONE WHO IS -- AND JEWISH ARTISTS AND WRITERS AND THINKERS.

BECAUSE WE CARE ABOUT ISRAEL.

HAVE BEEN SILENCED BY THIS DEFINITION.

BUT IT DOESN'T STOP IN GERMANY.

THIS IS ACTUALLY A HUGE ISSUE IN THE UNITED STATES.

>> ONE OF THE THINGS YOU POINTED OUT IS THERE HAVE BEEN ISSUES LIKE GOVERNMENTS TO DEFINE ANTI-SEMITISM SO THAT THEY CAN ADDRESS IT WHEN IT EXISTS TO, YOU KNOW, WHATEVER MEANS AND YOU POINT OUT THAT THIS COMING YOU TALKED ABOUT THIS IN THE INTERNATIONAL HOLOCAUST REMEMBRANCE ALLIANCE THEY CAME UP WITH THIS DEFINITION.

THIS WAS IN 2016.

IT WAS ADOPTED BY DOZENS OF EU STATES AND THE UNITED STATES.

ONE OF THE ISSUES THAT IDENTIFIES IS DRAWING COMPARISONS OF CONTEMPORARY ISRAELI POLICY TO THAT OF THE NAZIS.

WHY IS THAT SO IMPORTANT WHAT YOU TAKE ISSUE WITH THAT?

>> LOOK, OUR ENTIRE POST SECOND WORLD WAR IDEA OF HOW WE PROTECT PEOPLE, HOW WE PROTECT HUMAN RIGHTS, HOW WE PROTECT PEOPLE FROM CRIMES AGAINST HUMANITY.

THAT ENTIRE INTELLECTUAL AND LEGAL FRAMEWORK IS BASED ON WHAT CAME AFTER THE HOLOCAUST.

THIS IS WHEN THE WORLD SAID NEVER AGAIN.

SO IN THE SENSE, EVERY TIME, WHEN WE ARE LOOKING AT A COUNTRY AND ITS HUMAN RIGHTS RECORD, AND THE WAY IT WAGES WAR, WE ARE COMPARING IT TO THE HOLOCAUST.

WE ARE COMPARING IT TO THE.

DOES THIS RISE TO THE KIND OF CRYING, TO THE KIND OF VIOLATION THAT REQUIRES THE WORLD TO INTERVENE AND PROTECT PEOPLE IN THE WAY THAT IT SECOND WORLD WAR.

SO WHEN WITH THE SUPPORT OF THE RIGHT WING ISRAELI GOVERNMENT, WHO HAS BEEN IN POWER FOR MORE YEARS THAN I CAN COUNT, THIS DEFINITION PREVENTS THAT COMPARISON.

IT BASICALLY POSITIONS ISRAEL AS BEING OUTSIDE THE FRAMEWORK OF INTERNATIONAL HUMANITARIAN LAW.

AND OUTSIDE THE HUMAN RIGHTS FRAMEWORK.

THAT IS WHY FOR BIDDING THAT COMPARISON IS SUCH A GRIEVOUS THING.

>> YOU ARE EXPANDING IN THE PIECE, WHY HOLOCAUST REMEMBRANCE IS SO IMPORTANT TO GERMANY.

FOR VERY GOOD REASONS.

FOR VERY GOOD REASONS.

HERE IS THIS LINE IN PARTICULAR THAT SEEMS TO EVOKE A LOT OF BACKLASH.

YOU SAY YOU ARE COMPARING GAZA TO JEWISH GHETTOS UNDER THE NAZIS, YOU SAY NOT LIKE THE INNER-CITY GHETTO, BUT LIKE THE JEWISH GHETTO, OCCUPIED BY AND WE ARE OFF TO THE RACES.

>> SO LAVISHLY VIOLATED THE LEATHER WITH THAT DEFINITION.

I AM NOT THE FIRST PERSON TO DO IT.

I WAS ABOUT TO RECEIVE THE HANNAH ARENDT PRIZE FOR POLITICAL THOUGHT, WHICH HANNAH WAS ONE OF THE ORIGINAL PEOPLE WHO REALLY WAS --BACK IN 1948, COMPARING THE POLITICS OF ACTIONS OF SOME IS REALLY POLITICAL PARTIES TO THOSE OF THE NAZIS.

I THINK IT'S ESSENTIAL TO MAKE THAT COMPARISON RIGHT NOW.

BECAUSE IF WE ARE SERIOUS ABOUT NEVER AGAIN, THIS IS THE MOMENT.

PEOPLE CAN STILL BE SAVED IN GAZA.

>> DID YOU ANTICIPATE A BACKLASH?

A NEGATIVE REACTION?

ANGER, THEORY --FURY?

>> SURE.

I KNOW THIS IS WHEN PEOPLE THROUGH THEIR LAPTOPS ACROSS THE ROOM.

THAT LINE WAS THE POINT OF THE PIECE.

THE OTHER 7500 WORDS WERE MAKING MY ARGUMENT.

OF COURSE IT'S A HUGE THING TO MAKE THAT COMPARISON.

OF COURSE IT MAKES PEOPLE UPSET.

IT SHOULD MAKE PEOPLE UPSET.

WE SHOULD BE LOSING SLEEP EVERY DAY BECAUSE OF WHAT'S HAPPENING IN GAZA, BECAUSE THE COMPARISON IS VALID.

>> ONE OF THE THINGS ABOUT YOUR PIECE THAT WAS SO PROFOUND AND FRANKLY DIFFICULT TO TALK ABOUT IN A SENSITIVE WAY IS THAT YOU SPOKE ABOUT IT MAKES ISRAEL A PERMANENT VICTIM AND I THOUGHT YOU MIGHT WANT TO TALK ABOUT WHY YOU THINK THAT.

EMPHASIZING THE SINGULARITY OF THE EXPERIENCE AND THINK IT ONLY APPLIES TO JEWISH PEOPLE YOU FEEL THAT THAT IS SO KIND OF COMPROMISING OF ISRAEL AND ITS OWN KIND OF --WHAT YOU SAY ABOUT THAT?

>> I THINK IT'S COMPROMISING ITS MORAL AGENCY BECAUSE WHEN YOU ARE ACTIVELY BEING A VICTIM, WHEN YOU ARE IN SUCH EXTRAORDINARY PAIN AND THIS PAIN HAS, INDEED, PASSED ON THROUGH GENERATIONS, HOW DO YOU HOLD YOURSELF TO ACCOUNT MORALLY?

WHEN YOU ARE DRIVEN BY THE DESIRE FOR -- AS ISRAELIS, MANY ARE, NOT RIGHT NOW IN GAZA, WHO IS GOING TO HOLD YOU TO ACCOUNT?

IF YOU ARE RELIEVED ABOUT RESPONSIBILITY BECAUSE YOUR PEOPLE ARE A PERMANENT VICTIM, MY PEOPLE, IN THIS CASE, OR PERMIT VICTIMS.

IF THE WORLD IS NOT GOING TO INTERVENE AND HOLD YOU TO ACCOUNT, THAT CREATES MORAL CATASTROPHE.

>> SO THE BACKLASH.

YOU ARE ON YOUR WAY TO RECEIVE THIS PRESTIGIOUS PRIZE IN GERMANY AND THEN A, THE FOUNDATION, A FOUNDATION CONNECTED TO THE AWARD CALLED FOR IT TO BE RESCINDED.

THE CITY WITHDREW THE VENUE WHERE THE PRICE CEREMONY WAS SCHEDULED TO TAKE PLACE.

THE CEREMONY WAS SUSPENDED.

IT WAS SCALED BACK.

YOU DID RECEIVE THE AWARD, BUT YOU KNOW, FRANKLY, LET'S BE HONEST.

IT'S KIND OF BECOME AN INTERNATIONAL INCIDENT.

CAN YOU TELL US HOW YOU FOUND OUT ABOUT ALL THIS?

>> I WAS ABOUT TO FLY HIM TO GERMANY WHEN I GOT AN EMAIL FROM ONE OF THE ORGANIZERS.

ACTUALLY, A SCHOLAR WHO IS A MEMBER OF THE HANNAH ARENDT ORGANIZATION THAT AWARDS THE PRIZE.

THE SUBJECT LINE WAS BE PREPARED AND SHE SAID THE -- FOUNDATION, WHICH IS NOT JUST A FOUNDATION, IT'S A BIG POLITICAL FOUNDATION IN GERMANY AND IT'S CONNECTED TO THE GREEN WORK.

IT'S THE CONNECTION TO THE GREEN PARTY, WHICH IS THE GOVERNMENT PARTY IN GERMANY RIGHT NOW.

SHE SAID THEY HAVE PULLED OUT AND AS A RESULT, WE LOST THE VENUE, WHICH WAS CITY HALL IN THE CITY OF BREMEN.

WE WILL HOLD THE PRIZE AND I THOUGHT FOR A MINUTE ABOUT WHETHER I SHOULD FLY OR NOT AND I FLEW AND BY THE TIME I GOT THERE, IT WAS KIND OF AN INTERNATIONAL SCANDAL AND IN THE END, THE PRICE CERTAINLY WAS HELD, INSTEAD OF A DINNER FOR 4 TO 500 PEOPLE AT CITY HALL.

THERE WAS A DOZEN PEOPLE DINING AT A PRIVATE HOUSE AND THEN THE NEXT DAY, THERE WAS A PRICE CEREMONY, I KID YOU NOT, AND A --FORTIFIED SHED BECAUSE WE COULD NOT GET ANOTHER VENUE.

>> THEY SAID IT'S INCOME PRINCIPLE TO US HOW A SCHOLAR AS EXPERIENCED AS MASHA GESSEN, WHO HAS MADE SUCH A GREAT CONTRIBUTION TO THE CRITICAL ANALYSIS OF RUSSIAN IMPERIALISM, CAN SERIOUSLY EQUATE GAZA WITH THE NAZI EXTERMINATION GHETTOS.

FOR ONLY -- PREJUDICE AGAINST THE JEWISH STATE.

THIS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH POLITICAL JUDGMENT IN THE SENSE OF HANNAH ARENDT.

MASHA GESSEN, IS FREE TO HOLD SUCH VIEWS.

WE HAVE --CRITICAL ASSESSMENT OF ISRAELI POLITICS IS ALSO A PERMANENT PART OF OUR WORK AS THE DIG, BUT MASHA GESSEN SHOULD NOT BE HONORED WITH AN AWARD THAT IS MEANT TO COMMEMORATE THE JEWISH PHILOSOPHER HANNAH ARENDT.

THAT'S EXTRAORDINARY.

IN ESSENCE, THEY ARE CALLING YOU A DESCENDENT OF HOLOCAUST SURVIVORS, A JEWISH THINKER, A PERSON WHO HAS, YOU KNOW, ATTACKED BY TOTALITARIAN GOVERNMENTS BEFORE, WHOSE FAMILY FLED INTO ITALIAN -- TOTALITARIAN REGIME, THE CALLING YOU AN ANTI-SEMITE.

>> THAT IS WHAT THEY ARE SAYING.

AND IT'S ALSO WHAT I WAS READING IN THIS --IT'S RUN BY NON-TRAN11.

THEY ARE DISPROPORTIONALLY JEWS.

>> WHAT YOU THINK THEY HAVE SUCH ALACRITY?

I'M JUST WONDERING WHY THERE IS NOT MUCH CRITICAL DISTANCE THERE?

THEY CLAIM THAT THEY ARE OPEN TO CRITICISM OF THE ISRAELI GOVERNMENT, AND ITS POLICIES AND ITS ACTIONS, SO I GUESS I'M JUST SORT OF WONDERING WHAT YOU MAKE OF THIS?

>> I THINK I ALSO HAVE TO SAY THAT IT IS, I DON'T I DON'T HAVE DOUBTS ABOUT HOW SINCERE THEY ARE.

I THINK THERE ARE ELEMENTS TO THE POLICY.

THE TARGETING OF JEWS, THE EASE, THE EQUATING OF JEWS WITH THE STATE OF ISRAEL, I THINK THERE'S AN ARGUMENT TO BE MADE THAT THAT IS, IN ITSELF, ANTI- SEMITIC.

IT'S NO ACCIDENT THAT THE PARTY THAT'S PROBABLY BENEFITED THE MOST FROM THIS ANTI-SEMITISM, ANTI-ANTI- SEMITISM BUREAUCRACY IS THE FAR RIGHT PARTY.

IT RODE INTO THE POLITICAL MAINSTREAM ON THIS SORT OF ANTI-SEMITISM TRUMP CARD.

AGAIN, THIS IS NOT DISSIMILAR TO WHAT WE WERE SEEING IN THE UNITED STATES RIGHT NOW.

I DON'T THINK THAT REPRESENTATIVE IS LOSING SLEEP OVER ANTI-SEMITISM.

BUT SHE SURE FINDS IT CONVENIENT TO TARGET UNIVERSITY PRESIDENTS UNDER THE GUISE OF FIGHTING ANTI-SEMITISM.

FOR THIS POLICING A SPEECH?

IT WOULD SEEM TO PEOPLE WHO ARE TARGETED BY THIS WOULD DRAW THE SAME COMPARISON THAT YOU DO.

>> IT TAKES A LOT OF TIME AND INTELLECTUAL ENERGY TO DRAW THAT COMPARISON.

AND PEOPLE DON'T HAVE TIME INTELLECTUAL ENERGY, AND THEY ARE SCARED.

YOU KNOW, JEWS ARE ACTUALLY SCARED.

I THINK A LOT OF IT IS, YOU KNOW, THE AFTERMATH OF OCTOBER 7th HAS BLINDED PEOPLE TO THE FATE OF OTHERS, WHICH IS WHAT HAPPENS WHEN PEOPLE ARE SCARED.

TO SEE WHAT HAPPENED IN ISRAEL AND TO HAVE THE ISRAELI GOVERNMENT SPIN IT AS AN ANTI- SEMITIC ATTACK WHEN IN FACT, IT WAS AN ANTI-ISRAELI ATTACK REALLY MAKES PEOPLE FEEL LIKE THEY ARE UNDER ATTACK.

SO, YOU KNOW, IN THAT STATE, PEOPLE JUST WANT TO BAN EVERYTHING, STOP EVERYTHING, GO ALONG WITH WHOEVER TELLS THEM THAT THEY ARE GOING TO BE ALE TO PUNISH THE PEOPLE RESPONSIBLE.

>> WHY DO YOU THINK IT'S IMPORTANT TO DRAW THE CONNECTION TO WHAT IS HAPPENING NOW IN GAZA?

>> WELL, WHAT'S HAPPENING IN GAZA NOW IS THAT PEOPLE WHO HAVE BEEN EFFECTIVELY --ARE BEING INDISCRIMINATELY TARGETED, KILLED, AND STARVE.

AT THIS POINT, THE STRONGEST CONNECTION, YOU KNOW, YOU MAY NOT REALIZE THAT OUT OF THE 6 MILLION JEWS WHO DIED IN THE HOLOCAUST, 1.3 DIED OF STARVATION AND DISEASE, EXACTLY WHAT'S BEING INFLICTED UPON PEOPLE IN GAZA AS A WEAPON OF WAR RIGHT NOW.

THE BIGGEST DIFFERENCE BETWEEN GAZA AND THE JEWISH GHETTO IN OCCUPIED EUROPE IS THAT MOST GAZANS ARE STILL ALIVE.

THERE'S STILL AN OPPORTUNITY FOR THE WORLD TO STOP THEM AND STEP IN AND STOP THIS.

>> YOU THINK IT'S A GENOCIDE?

WHAT IS HAPPENING IN GAZA?

WOULD YOU USE THAT EXPRESSION?

>> I THINK THERE'S A FINE -- THEY ARE VALID ARGUMENTS FOR USING BOTH TERMS, ETHNIC CLEANSING AND GENOCIDE.

BUT I THINK THAT IT'S INCUMBENT ON THE WORLD TO EITHER STOP OR PREVENT A GENOCIDE.

>> BUT YOU THINK IT ETHNIC CLEANSING >> IT IS, AT THE VERY LEAST, IT'S AN ETHNIC CLEANSING.

>> THERE ARE THOSE WHO WOULD ARGUE THAT HOWEVER VALUED YOUR CRITIQUE, A TIME WHEN JEWS ARE UNDER ATTACK IN UNITED STATES AND ELSEWHERE, YOU KNOW, FOR EXAMPLE, I DON'T KNOW, AS WE ARE SPEAKING NOW, LITERALLY HUNDREDS OF JEWISH INSTITUTIONS, SCHOOLS, SYNAGOGUES, ET CETERA, OR THE SUBJECT OF BOMB THREATS OF THE WEEKEND, AND THERE IS ARE THOSE WHO ARGUE THAT HOWEVER VALID WHAT IT IS YOU ARE SAYING RIGHT NOW, AT A TIME WHEN JEWISH PEOPLE ARE UNDER ATTACK, IT WOULD HAVE BEEN BETTER TO NOT SAY IT AND I JUST, I KNOW YOU'VE HEARD THAT SO I'D LIKE THAT.

>> LOOK, I DON'T BELIEVE THAT WE HAVE TO ACT LIKE HUMANS ARE STUPID.

I DON'T BELIEVE THAT WE HAVE TO ACT AS THOUGH WE CAN ONLY PROTECT ONE POPULATION AT A TIME.

I REALLY THINK THAT WE ARE CAPABLE OF PROTECTING JEWS IN THE UNITED STATES AND ELSEWHERE FROM ANTI-SEMITIC ATTACKS AT THE SAME TIME THAT WE CRITICIZE THE STATE OF ISRAEL AND PROTECT PALESTINIANS IN GAZA FROM AN OVERWHELMING MILITARY ONSLAUGHT.

>> MASHA GESSEN, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR TALKING WITH US ONCE AGAIN.

>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.