>>> HELLO, EVERYONE.

AND WELCOME TO "AMANPOUR&AND COMPANY."

HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.

STARVING TO DEATH, THE WAR OVER FOOD IN GAZA FIVE MONTHS INTO THE ISRAELI SIEGE.

>>> AND SHUTTLE DIPLOMACY, NETANYAHU RIVAL BENNY GANTZ DOES HIS BEST TO KEEP UP APPEARANCES.

>>> ISRAELI HISTORIAN AND WRITER FANYA SALZ BERGER REFLECTS ON THE SORROW AND MORALITY OF THIS WAR.

PLUS -- >>> THERE'S NO REASON TO BE -- [ SPEAKING IN A NON-ENGLISH LANGUAGE ] >> ISRAEL CALLED HIM A TERRORIST, BUT THE PALESTINIANS SEE A LEADER.

A NEW DOCUMENTARY EXPLORES THE ENDURING POPULARITY OF THE JAILED POLITICAL FIGURE MARWAN BARGUTI.

I SPOKE TO SOPHIA SCOTT AND BARGUTI'S SON.

>>> ALSO AHEAD -- >> THEY CALL IT SUPER TUESDAY FOR A REASON.

THIS IS A BIG ONE.

>> TRUMP WINS AND NIKKI HALEY DROPS OUT OF THE GOP RACE.

CONSERVATIVE JOURNALIST MONA CHARREN JOINS MICHELLE MARTIN TO DISCUSS HOW WOMEN'S RIGHTS ARE ON THE BALLOT THIS NOVEMBER.

HER LATEST PIECE "IVF AND THE GOP. "

>>> "AMANPOUR & COMPANY" IS MADE POSSIBLE BY -- THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT.

JIM ATWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS.

CANDACE KING WEIR.

THE FAMILY FOUNDATION OF LEILA AND MICKEY STRAUS.

MARK J. BLECHNER.

THE FILLMAN M. DOING STEIN ASSOCIATION.

SETON J. MELVIN.

CHARLES ROSENBLUM.

KOO AND PATRICIA YUEN.

COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES IN OUR COMMUNITIES.

BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG.

ADDITIONAL SUPPORT PROVIDED BY THESE FUNDERS.

AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

THANK YOU.

>>> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE, I'M CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR IN LONDON.

IN GAZA THE MOST VULNERABLE ARE PAYING THE PRICE OF THE 1,200 KILLED AND HUNDREDS KIDNAPPED ON OCTOBER 7th.

THE MOST URGENT NEED IS ACCESS TO BASIC, VITAL NECESSITIES LIKE FOOD AND WATER.

AID AGENCIES SAY CHILDREN ARE FACING EXTREME MALNUTRITION AND DEHYDRATION.

15 CHILDREN HAVE ALREADY DIED BECAUSE OF IT ACCORDING TO THE MINISTRY OF HEALTH.

AND WITH SO MANY ORPHANED AND INJURED, HEALTH WORKERS NOW COMMONLY USE A HEARTBREAKING EUPHEMISM -- WOUNDED CHILDREN NO SURVIVING FAMILY.

SO WITH FEARS OF A FULL-BLOWN FAMINE FOR MILLIONS ACROSS GAZA, THE EU COMMISSION PRESIDENT WILL TRAVEL TO CYPRESS TO DISCUSS PLANS FOR A MARITIME AID CORRIDOR TO THE GAZA COAST.

AS WE REPORT NOW, PARENTS ARE SAYING GOOD-BYE TO THEIR SONS AND DAUGHTERS.

AND OF COURSE, WHILE THESE IMAGES OF THEIR REALITY ARE DISTRESSING, THE MOTHERS WHO WERE INTERVIEWED SAY THEY DO WANT THE WORLD TO SEE.

>> Reporter: TINY LIMBS, BONES PROTRUDING.

[ CRYING ] THE CONSTANT SOUND OF CRYING FROM CHILDREN NOW FACING STARVATION IN GAZA.

IN THIS OVERRUN HOSPITAL WARD, ANXIOUS MOTHERS WATCH ON AS DOCTORS PROVIDE WHATEVER CARE THEY STILL CAN.

FOR SOME, THERE IS NOTHING MORE TO BE DONE.

3-YEAR-OLD MILA WHO HAD BEEN SUFFERING FROM ACUTE MALNUTRITION NOW ANOTHER VICTIM OF THIS MERCILESS WAR.

>> SHE WAS HEALTHY, HER MOTHER SAYS, THEN EVERYTHING DROPPED.

SHE WASN'T EATING ANYTHING.

WE HAD NO MILK, NO EGGS, NOTHING.

SHE USED TO EAT EGGS EVERY DAY BEFORE THE WAR, BUT NOW WE HAVE NOTHING.

ACROSS GAZA TOO MANY ARE FEELING THE PAIN OF THIS DEEPENING HUNGER CRISIS.

SMALL CHILDREN EMACIATED AND MALNOURISHED.

THESE WERE THIS BOY'S FINAL MOMENTS.

HIS TINY FINGERS GRIPPED IN HIS MOTHER'S HAND.

HE LIKE MILA WOULD NOT MAKE IT.

OTHERS ARE STILL JUST BARELY HOLDING ON.

BUT THERE IS NO TELLING HOW LONG THEY WILL SURVIVE.

[ SPEAKING IN A NON-ENGLISH LANGUAGE ] STANDING BESIDE MILA'S BODY THE DOCTOR SAYS MANY CHILDREN AT THIS HOSPITAL ARE NOW DYING DUE TO A LACK OF FOOD AND OXYGEN SUPPLIES.

WITH LIMITED AID GETTING IN, MANY HAVE GROWN DESPERATE.

SEARCHING FOR FOOD WHENEVER THEY CAN.

9-YEAR-OLD MUHAMMAD SAYS HE WALKS FOR ABOUT A MILE EVERYDAY TO COLLECT WATER FOR HIS FAMILY.

YOU SEEM SAD, WHY, THIS JOURNALIST ASKS HIM.

"BECAUSE OF THE WAR," HE SAYS.

IT IS ALL TOO MUCH.

ON TUESDAY, U.N.

EXPERTS ACCUSED ISRAEL OF INTENTIONALLY STARVING THE PALESTINIAN PEOPLE IN GAZA.

NOTING THAT THE ISRAELI MILITARY IS NOW TARGETING BOTH CIVILIANS SEEKING AID AND HUMANITARIAN CONVOYS.

ISRAEL HAS DENIED TARGETING CIVILIANS AND SAYS THAT THERE IS, QUOTE, NO LIMIT TO THE AMOUNT OF HUMANITARIAN AID FOR CIVILIANS IN GAZA.

BUT THE REALITY ON THE GROUND PAINTS A VERY DIFFERENT PICTURE.

[ SPEAKING IN A NON-ENGLISH LANGUAGE ] THERE IS NO FOOD, NO WATER, NO FLOUR, COOKING OIL, OR ANYTHING, THIS WOMAN SAYS.

DEATH IS BETTER THAN THIS.

ACCORDING TO A SENIOR U.N. OFFICIAL, AT LEAST A QUARTER OF GAZA'S POPULATION IS NOW SAID TO BE JUST ONE STEP AWAY FROM FAMINE.

WITH AID AGENCIES FACING OVERWHELMING OBSTACLES AND GETTING THE BARE MINIMUM OF SUPPLIES INTO GAZA, AND AS ISRAEL'S GRAND OFFENSIVE THREATENS TO PUSH FURTHER INTO THE STRIP'S DENSELY POPULATED SOUTH, TIME IS QUICKLY RUNNING OUT.

WHILE INTERNATIONAL EFFORTS TO AIRDROP HUMANITARIAN SUPPLIES HAVE PROVIDED SOME RESPITE, IT IS SIMPLY NOT ENOUGH.

WITH STALLING NEGOTIATIONS LEAVING LITTLE HOPE FOR AN END TO THE SUFFERING AND HUNGER OF THE PALESTINIAN PEOPLE IN GAZA.

>> NADA BESHEAR REPORTING THERE, THE EXAMPLE, REALITY OF WHY SO MANY AROUND THE WORLD ARE CALLING FOR A HUMANITARIAN CEASE-FIRE.

ISRAEL'S WAR CABINET MEMBER BENNY GANTZ HAS FLOWN HERE TO LONDON FROM WASHINGTON AS THE UK ALSO WARNS ABOUT URGENTLY EXPANDING A HUMANITARIAN AID CONVOY TO GAZA.

GANTZ WAS REPORTEDLY TAKEN ABACK AFTER HE WAS TOLD REPEATEDLY THAT ISRAEL MUST ALLEVIATE THE HUMANITARIAN SUFFERING BY BOTH VICE PRESIDENT KAMALA HARRIS AND NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISER JAKE SULLIVAN.

THAT'S ACCORDING TO U.S. AND ISRAELI OFFICIALS.

AND INSIDE ISRAEL, MORE AND MORE CITIZENS ARE PUBLICLY WRESTLING WITH MORAL BALANCE OVER THEIR SHOCKING LOSS IN TRAUMA, AND THAT BEING INFLICTED NOW BY THE GOVERNMENT ON PALESTINIAN CIVILIANS.

AN EMERITUS PROFESSOR OF HISTORY AT THE UNIVERSITY OF HAIFA IS ALSO THE DAUGHTER OF THE FAMED ISRAELI NOVELIST ALMAS OZ AND A SELF-PROCLAIMED PEACE NIC.

SHE TALKED ABOUT FINDING A POLITICAL SOLUTION AND PROTECTING HAMAS WHILE PROTECTING THE SOUL OF THE NATION.

WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

>> THANK YOU.

>> CAN I ASK YOU BECAUSE YOU ARE AN ISRAELI INTELLECTUAL AND THERE SEEMS TO BE A NUMBER OF YOUR FELLOW INTELLECTUALS STARTING TO -- I DON'T KNOW IF QUESTION IS THE RIGHT WORD, BUT STARTING TO TALK ABOUT AND WRITE ABOUT THE ENORMOUS COST IN GLOBAL ACCEPTANCE, PUBLIC OPINION, THAT ISRAEL IS SUFFERING RIGHT NOW BECAUSE OF WHAT IS HAPPENING IN GAZA WITH THE DEATH OF 30,000 PEOPLE, YOU KNOW, STARVATION, FAMINE.

ALL OF THOSE THINGS THAT YOU KNOW.

>> YES.

SO YES, WE HAVE STARTED -- WE HAVE NOT STARTED ACTUALLY, WE'VE BEEN AT IT FOR QUITE A WHILE NOW.

IT WAS ABSOLUTELY CLEAR THAT A WAR IN GAZA WILL HAVE A TERRIBLE TOLL, A TERRIBLE COST IN HUMANITARIAN SUFFERING IN GAZA.

I COULD MANY OF US KNEW THIS FROM THE VERY BEGINNING.

AND STILL WE FELT AND I STILL FEEL AS WE TALK NOW THAT DEFEATING HAMAS IS WHOLLY NECESSARY.

IT IS MORALLY RIGHT.

HOWEVER, THIS IS CERTAINLY NOT THE KIND OF WAR THAT I AND MANY OTHER ISRAELIS WOULD HAVE LIKED TO FIGHT AGAINST HAMAS.

>> DO YOU THINK AS HARARI SAID THAT HE FEARS FOR THE SOUL OF ISRAEL, AND I WONDER WHETHER YOU THINK -- YOU'VE SEEN WITH YOUR OWN EYES THESE SELFIES THAT ISRAELI SOLDIERS ARE TAKING OF THEMSELVES IN GAZA.

DO YOU THINK THAT, YOU KNOW, THIS IS -- I GUESS DIMINISHING THE SELF-PROCLAIMED NOTION OF THE MOST MORAL ARMY IN THE WORLD.

>> I WILL NOT CALL ANY ARMY IN THE WORLD THE MOST MORAL ARMY IN THE WORLD.

I THINK THAT THIS IS A DOOMED KIND OF COMPETITION.

I DO THINK THAT ISRAEL, THE ISRAEL THAT I HAVE GROWN UP IN, THAT I HAVE KNOWN, THAT I HAVE LOVED, THAT I STILL LOVE, THIS KIND OF ISRAEL HAS ATTEMPTED IN THE BEST POSSIBLE WAY TO DIMINISH THE SUFFERING OF BOTH OURSELVES AND OUR ENEMIES AND CERTAINLY OUR ENEMY CIVILIANS AND INNOCENTS.

GAZA HAS INNOCENT PEOPLE.

NOT ALL CIVILIANS ARE INNOCENT, UNFORTUNATELY, BUT WE CANNOT TELL THE DIFFERENCE WHEN WE FIGHT.

HENCE, ALL CIVILIANS DESERVE TO BE PROTECTED AS BEST WE CAN.

I THINK THAT IN THIS WAR WE HAVE PARTIALLY FAILED IN DOING THAT, ALTHOUGH WE HAVE BEEN TRYING.

THE IDF HAS ATTEMPTED TO DIMINISH THE DANGER TO CIVILIANS, NOT ALWAYS SUCCESSFULLY, AND SOMETIMES PREFERRING THE SANCTITY OF OUR OWN -- SAFETY OF OUR OWN SOLDIERS TO SAFETY OF LOCAL CIVILIANS.

IT IS A COMPLICATED CASE.

IT IS A HORRIBLE -- A SET OF HORRIBLE MORAL DILEMMAS.

AND I CERTAINLY WISH THAT ANOTHER LEADERSHIP, ANOTHER PRIME MINISTER, ANOTHER KIND OF WAR CABINET WOULD HAVE BEEN RUNNING THIS WAR, NOT THE PREVIOUS WARS WHERE PARADOXICAL -- BUT THIS WAR IS AMONG THE WORST, PERHAPS THE WORST, PERHAPS THE UGLIEST, PERHAPS THE DIRTIEST THAT WE EVER HAD TO FIGHT.

AND STILL, I HAVE TO SAY THAT WE HAVE TO DEFEAT HAMAS, NOT DISREGARDING THE MORAL DILEMMAS, BUT DOING OUR BEST WHICH WE HAVEN'T UNFORTUNATELY AT TRYING TO KEEP DOING OUR BEST FOR THE INNOCENT AND UNINVOLVED.

>> HOW MANY ISRAELIS DO YOU THINK SHARE THAT OPINION?

BECAUSE I KNOW THAT THE OVERWHELMING MAJORITY OF ISRAELIS BELIEVE IN THIS WAR.

AND AS YOU SAY, THE OVERWHELMING MAJORITY OF ISRAELIS ALSO DO NOT BELIEVE IN THE LEADERSHIP OF BENJAMIN NETANYAHU, YOUR CURRENT PRIME MINISTER.

>> WELL, FIRST OF ALL, LET ME SAY -- AND THIS IS A CAVEAT THAT I HAVE TO MAKE ABSOLUTELY CLEAR, THAT UNLIKE THE REST OF THE WORLD WHO IS WATCHING US ON THE SCREENS AND MORALIZING FROM THE ARMCHAIR, WE ARE A BATTERED NATION RIGHT NOW.

WE ARE NOT ONLY HEARTBROKEN, SO HEARTBROKEN THAT SOMETIMES IT'S DIFFICULT TO BE HEARTBROKEN FOR THE CIVILIANS ON THE ENEMY SIDE.

WE ARE ALSO MIND BOGGLED, SHOCKED, HUMILIATED, VERY FEW ISRAELIS WILL ADMIT THAT, BUT WE MIGHT AS WELL SAY WE ALSO FEEL HUMILIATED.

TERRIBLY SADDENED, TERRIBLY SCARED, WITH A SENSE OF AN ONGOING CRISIS, THE WORST IN OUR HISTORY FOR SURE, AND AN ONGOING SENT OF TRAGIC LOSS.

I'M SAYING THAT THIS NOT ONLY IN ORDER -- NOT IN ORDER TO PLAY THE VICTIM'S CARD, I DON'T BELIEVE IN PLAYING A VICTIM'S CARD.

BUT I DO BELIEVE THAT MANY OF US HAVE BEEN TRULY VICTIMIZED ON THE 7th OF OCTOBER AND OF COURSE THE HOSTAGES ARE STILL SUFFERING A HORRIBLE, HORRIBLE FATE.

I'M WORRYING LIKE SO MANY ISRAELIS DO NOW -- WEARING LIKE SO MANY ISRAELIS DO NOW THE BRING THEM HOME -- TOKEN.

AND OUR HEART, AS IT SAYS, IS CAPTIVE IN GAZA.

WE ARE NOT BEING TOTALLY RATIONAL NOW.

I DON'T THINK THAT WE ARE SITTING HERE, MOST OF US, APART FROM PERHAPS FROM A FEW STRONG WOMEN AND MEN, MOST OF US ARE NOT WEIGHING THE MORAL OPTIONS AND NECESSITIES IN A TOTALLY RATIONAL WAY BECAUSE WE ARE DEEPLY, DEEPLY INVOLVED.

HURT, INJURED, SURPRISED IN A NEGATIVE WAY BEYOND THE CAPACITY OF MANY PEOPLE, TO TAKE UP COMPLICATIONS, NUANCES, TO UNDERSTAND OR TO TRY TO IMAGINE THE OTHER SIDE.

AND HAVING SAID THAT, I THINK THAT MANY ISRAELIS BELIEVE THAT WE SHOULD HAVE HAD A HUMANITARIAN CEASE-FIRE AND HOSTAGE EXCHANGE, ANOTHER CEASE-FIRE AND HOSTAGE EXCHANGE MONTHS AGO.

SO ALONGSIDE THE FEAR AND THE SADNESS AND THE SHOCK, THERE IS ALSO A MOUNTING SENSE OF ANGER AMONG THE ISRAELI POPULATION AGAINST OUR OWN LEADERSHIP, OUR COALITION GOVERNMENT, AND ESPECIALLY OUR PRIME MINISTER.

>> YOU KNOW, IT'S JUST SO INTERESTING TO HEAR YOU SAY THAT.

AND I JUST WANT TO AT THIS POINT BRING IN AN INTERVIEW THAT I DID WITH YOUR OWN FATHER, THE GREAT NOVELIST AMAS OZ, IN 2010, WITH A PALESTINIAN LAWYER WHOSE OWN SON WAS KILLED BY A PALESTINIAN GUNMAN, IN FACT.

BUT THIS IS WHAT YOUR FATHER SAID TO US ABOUT THE STORY OF THE OTHER -- ABOUT THE EVENTUAL DAY AFTER, ABOUT THE EVENTUAL SOLUTION.

AND I JUST WANT TO PLAY THIS AND SEE WHAT YOU SAY.

>> YOU KNOW, IT'S DIFFICULT TO BE A PROPHET COMING FROM THE LAND OF THE PROPHETS.

LET ME GIVE YOU ONE PROPHECY.

ONE DAY THERE WILL BE A PALESTINIAN EMBASSY IN ISRAEL AND AN ISRAELI EMBASSY IN PALESTINE, AND THOSE TWO EMBASSIES WILL BE WALKING DISTANCE FROM ONE ANOTHER BECAUSE ONE OF THEM WILL BE IN EAST JERUSALEM AND THE OTHER IN WEST JERUSALEM.

>> SO THAT WAS IN 2010, 14 YEARS AGO.

>> YES.

>> WHEN YOU HEAR THAT -- >> OH, YES.

>> -- IS THAT AN EXTINGUISHED HOPE, OR IS THAT A HOPE THAT THIS HORROR HAS RELIT?

WHAT DO YOU THINK?

>> WELL, MY FATHER HAD TWO KINDS OF HOPES.

I WOULD NOT BE A LOYAL DAUGHTER IF I DIDN'T SOMETIMES DISAGREE WITH HIM.

BUT HE BELIEVED THAT PEACE IS POSSIBLE IN OUR DAY AND AGE, AND HE ALSO BELIEVED IN THE TWO-STATE SOLUTION.

I UNFORTUNATELY CANNOT USE THE WORD PEACE VERY EASILY AFTER THE 7th OF OCTOBER.

I WILL NOT HAVE PEACE WITH THE BRUTES OF GAZA, AND I'M NOT TALKING ABOUT ALL GAZANS, OF COURSE, BUT ABOUT HAMAS AND ITS SUPPORTERS.

NOT IN THIS GENERATION, PERHAPS NOT IN THE NEXT.

BUT I DO STRONGLY BELIEVE THAT THE TWO-STATE SOLUTION IS ALIVE.

IT IS THE ONE-STATE SOLUTION IDEA THAT WE WILL ALL LIVE HAPPILY EVER AFTER AS FELLOW CITIZENS IN ONE AS PEOPLE DEMAND A LIBERAL SECULAR STATE THAT I THINK IS A FANTASY FOR THIS DAY AND AGE.

BUT I BELIEVE STRONGLY, AS MY FATHER DID, THAT THE TWO-STATE SOLUTION IN REASONABLE NEIGHBORHOOD, PERHAPS NOT LOVE, PERHAPS NOT FULL PEACE, PERHAPS NOT FRIENDSHIP, BUT REASONABLE NEIGHBORHOOD ACROSS A SOLID FENCE THIS TIME SHOULD WORK AND IS, IN FACT, THE ONLY VIABLE SOLUTION FOR THE FUTURE OF BOTH ISRAEL AND PALESTINE.

>> AND YOUR FATHER DESCRIBED HIMSELF AS A PEACENICK NOT A PACIFIST.

DO YOU FEEL THAT, AS WELL?

>> I REMEMBER HIM EXPANDING ON THIS.

YES, FEEL THE SAME.

I'M CERTAINLY NOT A PACIFIST.

A PACIFIST IS THE KIND OF PERSON WHO FACING AGGRESSION WOULD LAY DOWN AND DIE OR RUN AWAY OR LOAF THE COUNTRY AS -- LEAVE THE COUNTRY AS SOME PEOPLE ACROSS THE GLOBE DEMAND OF US TO LEAVE OUR HOMELAND AND GO BACK WHERE, WHERE, TO THE JEWISH PAST, TO THE HOLOCAUST.

I DO BELIEVE THAT ISRAEL SHOULD HAVE A STRONG ARMY.

I'M PROUD THAT I ALSO SERVED AS A SOLDIER AND AN OFFICER IN THE ISRAELI ARMY MANY YEARS AGO.

AND I THINK THAT THIS ARMY IS THE ONLY THING KEEPING US FROM BEING EXTERMINATED AS A PEOPLE AND AS A COUNTRY IN THIS PART OF THE MIDDLE EAST.

>> WHY DO YOU THINK IT IS THE CREATIVES, THE WRITERS, THE ARTISTS LIKE YOURSELF AND YOUR -- AND THE OTHERS IN ISRAEL WHO ARE BEGINNING TO HAVE THIS OPEN DISCUSSION NOW?

>> BECAUSE WRITERS, CHRISTIANE, AND CREATORS AND ARTISTS ARE PEOPLE WHO HAVE ALREADY BEEN INJURED.

YOU DON'T BECOME A GREAT ARTIST IF YOU DO NOT HAVE A WOUNDED SOUL.

AND HAVING A WOUNDED SOUL USUALLY MEANS THAT YOU UNDERSTAND AND EMPATHIZE WITH THE WOUNDS OF OTHERS.

YOU ARE, AS MY FATHER USED TO SAY, CAPABLE OF IMAGINING THE OTHER.

HAVING SAID THAT, NO, IT IS NOT ONLY THE WRITERS AND THE ARTISTS WHO ARE COMING FORWARD TO SPEAK ABOUT THE HUMANITY OF THE OTHER SIDE AND OF COURSE OUR OWN HUMANITY THAT NEEDS TO BE PRESERVED.

MANY PARTS OF ISRAELI CIVIL SOCIETY INCLUDING THE VETERANS OF THE PRO-DEMOCRACY MOVEMENT OF LAST YEAR, MANY GOOD PEOPLE IN THIS COUNTRY, MOST PART OF THE ARAB CITIZENS OF ISRAEL, THE ISRAELI PALESTINIANS, MY FELLOW CITIZENS HERE, AND MUCH OF THE LIBERAL AND CENTRIST LEFT AND CENTRAL LIBERALS ARE PEOPLE WHO WOULD BE WILLING TO TALK REASON AND TO SEE REASON AND TO MOVE TOWARD AN INTERNATIONAL GUARANTEE AGREEMENT THAT IS TOWARD HOPE.

SO YES, THE ARTISTS, THE WRITERS, THE POETS MAY BE LEADING THE WAY, BUT A LOT OF GOOD SOULS IN THIS COUNTRY WHICH HAS NOT LOST ITS SOUL AS YET, A LOT OF GOOD SOULS WILL BE ABLE TO CHIME IN AND TO TAKE PART WHEN THE TRUE PROCESS BEGINS.

AGAIN, PERHAPS NOT PEACE IN OUR TIME, PERHAPS NOT RECONCILIATION IN AN EMOTIONAL SENSE, BUT A RATIONAL AGREEMENT LEAVING ISRAEL WITH INDEFENSIBLE BORDERS AND A STRONG DEMOCRACY ALONGSIDE A VIABLY STABLE PALESTINE IS THE ONLY WAY WE CAN MOVE FORWARD, AND THIS MEANS HOPE.

SO YES, I STILL FOLLOW MY FATHER AND MANY OTHER GREAT ISRAELI WOMEN AND MEN IN THE GENERAL HOPE FOR THE FUTURE OF ALL OF US HERE, OF THIS WONDERFUL TEL AVIV WHOSE LIGHTS ARE TWINKLING BEHIND ME.

THERE IS HOPE, AND WE SHOULD KEEP IT UP.

>> WELL, WE ARE HAPPY TO HEAR YOU VOICE THAT HOPE.

FANIA, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR BEING WITH US.

>> THANK YOU.

>>> SO WHERE SHOULD PALESTINIANS LOOK FOR NEW LEADERSHIP FOR THE DAY AFTER?

THE GOVERNING PA IS DEEPLY UNPOPULAR.

ISRAEL IS AIMING TO ELIMINATE HAMAS FROM ANY FUTURE GOVERNMENT.

A MAN WHO HAS BEEN IMPRISONED FOR TWO DECADES IS BACK IN THE SPOTLIGHT.

MARWAN BARGATU CONSIDERED A TERRORIST BY ISRAEL, BY OTHERS AS A PALESTINIAN MANDELA.

THE CENTRAL FIGURE IN THE PALESTINIAN POLITICAL SCENE THROUGHOUT THE 1990s WAS CONVICTED ON FIVE COUNTS OF MURDER IN 2004.

HE DIDN'T EASE THOSE CHARGES AND -- DENIES THOSE CHARNS AND REFUSED TO RECOGNIZE THE ISRAELI COURT.

"TOMORROW'S FREEDOM" PAINTS A PORTRAIT THROUGH INTIMATE ACCESS TO HIS FAMILY WHO ARE CARRYING ON HIS CAUSE ON THE OUTSIDE.

HERE'S A CLIPS.

>> ISRAEL SUCCEEDED TO ARREST MY BODY BUT NOT MY HEAD AND NOT MY SOUL.

THEY WILL NOT SUCCEED TO DO THAT.

THEY WILL NOT BROKE OUR WILL FOR INDEPENDENCE AND FOR FREEDOM.

>> JOINING ME NOW IS CO-DIRECTOR, SOPHIA SCOTT.

SHE'S JOINING ME HERE ON SET IN LONDON.

AND BARGUTI ANTICIPATES SON IN RAMALLAH ON THE OCCUPIED WEST BANK.

WELCOME TO BOTH OF YOU.

SOPHIA, LET ME START BY ASKING YOU, I READ THAT YOU SAID THAT BEFORE YOU STARTED THIS YOU WERE DOING A DOCUMENTARY ELSEWHERE, YOU HAD NEVER EVEN HEARD OF BARGUTI.

AND YOU KNOW THE MIDDLE EAST PRETTY WELL.

WHAT MADE YOU WANT TO DO A WHOLE DOCUMENTARY ON HIM THEN?

>> MY SISTER AND I WERE IN LEBANON AND OBVIOUSLY THERE'S A LOT OF PALESTINIAN PEOPLE THERE, A LOT OF MURALS OF MARWAN BARGUTI.

WE WERE INTERESTED.

HIS FACE WAS CHARISMATIC.

WHEN WE GOOGLED HIS NAME AN INTERVIEW CAME UP WITH LINDSEY HILLSON A FEW YEARS AFTER HE WAS ARRESTED.

AND HE SPOKE PASSIONATELY, AND WE WERE INTRIGUED BY THIS PERSON THAT SOME OF THE PALESTINIANS IN LEBANON WERE TELLING US COULD BE OUR NELSON MANDELA.

WE HADN'T HEARD OF HIM BEFORE.

SO WE REACHED OUT IMMEDIATELY ACTUALLY TO HIS FAMILY TO SEE WHETHER THEY MIGHT BE INTERESTED IN US TRYING TO TELL SOME KIND OF STORY.

>> AND YOU TALK ABOUT LINDSEY HILLSON, OUR COLLEAGUE FROM CHANNEL 4.

IN FACT, THAT CLIP WE PLAYED WAS FROM HER INTERVIEW.

IT'S THE ONLY INTERVIEW WITH A NON-WESTERN AUTO -- A WESTERN PRESS HE'S DONE OR ANY PRESS SINCE HE'S BEEN IN JAIL.

BUT DID YOU -- SO YOU WANTED TO -- DID YOU EVER GET ACCESS OR ASK THE ISRAELIS TO GIVE YOU ACCESS TO MARWAN HIMSELF?

>> WE WERE VERY NERVOUS TRAVELING INTO ISRAEL TO GET INTO PALESTINE.

SO WE DIDN'T WANT TO RAISE ANY AWARENESS ABOUT WHAT WE WERE DOING.

SO WE WENT IN VERY QUIETLY.

SO WE NEVER ACTUALLY PUT A REQUEST IN TO INTERVIEW HIM.

WE'RE MAKING A FILM WHERE OUR MAIN CHARACTER IS ABSENT TO US.

SO THAT GAVE US LOTS OF ISSUES INITIALLY.

BUT ACTUALLY THE MORE THAT WE SPOKE TO HIS FAMILY, THE MORE THAT WE STARTED TO SPEAK TO PEOPLE IN HIS CIRCLE, NOT JUST PALESTINIANS BUT ISRAELIS THAT KNEW HIM BEFORE HE WAS ARRESTED, WE REALLY STARTED TO PUT TOGETHER THIS PUZZLE OF THIS MAN THAT I FIND INTERESTING.

>> LET ME TURN TO YOU, ARAB BARGUTI, YOU ARE HIS SON.

AND WE'RE TALKING TO YOU IN RAMALLAH.

SOPHIA DIDN'T HAVE ANY ACCESS.

HAVE YOU BEEN ABLE TO SEE YOUR FATHER?

AND WHEN WAS THE LAST TIME?

AND WHAT WAS YOUR INTEREST AND THE FAMILY'S INTEREST IN COOPERATING?

WHAT DID YOU WANT TO GET OUT?

>> SO FIRST OF ALL, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR HAVING ME.

FOR THE PAST 22 YEARS SINCE I WAS 11, THAT'S WHEN MY FATHER WAS IMPRISONED.

I HAVE SEEN MY FATHER TWICE A MONTH UNTIL I TURNED 16, AND THEN AFTER THAT I WOULD SEE HIM ONCE EVERY TWO YEARS, SOMETIMES THREE YEARS.

IT'S BEEN 18 MONTHS SINCE THE LAST TIME I I'VE SEEN HIM.

AND I STILL, YOU KNOW, THINK ABOUT HIM EVERY SINGLE DAY.

HE'S MISSED THE MAIN HIGHLIGHTS OF MY LIFE AND MY SIBLINGS' LIFE, AND THIS IS SOMETHING THAT I SHARED THIS PAIN WITH THOUSANDS AND THOUSANDS OF PALESTINIAN FAMILIES WHO ARE GOING THROUGH THE SAME.

AND WHY WE WANTED TO COOPERATE, IT'S BECAUSE SOPHIA AND GEORGIA ARE GREAT PRODUCERS, ARE GREAT PEOPLE, AND THEY CAME, AND THEY WERE INTERESTED PERSONALLY IN THIS STORY.

AND TO GET ACCESS TO THE FAMILY AND TO SEE WHAT PAIN WE'RE GOING THROUGH, AND THAT WAS ENOUGH FOR US TO COOPERATE WITH SUCH AMAZING PEOPLE LIKE THEM.

>> SO THERE IS A SCENE OF YOU IN THE FILM OBVIOUSLY WITH YOUR BROTHER AS YOU'RE TRAVELING TO MEET HIM, THE LAST TIME YOU SAW HIM PRESUMABLY.

THE FILM REALLY REVOLVES SO MUCH AROUND YOUR MOTHER.

THIS SORT OF POWERHOUSE OF A LAWYER WHO HAS CARRIED ON HER JAILED HUSBAND'S MISSION AND READS HIS WORDS TO SUPPORTERS OUTSIDE.

DESCRIBE YOUR MOTHER AND WHERE SHE FITS IN IN HIS LIFE, IN THE STRUGGLE, AND IN PALESTINIAN SOCIETY WHICH CAN BE QUITE CONSERVATIVE.

YOU DON'T OFTEN SEE WOMEN LEADERS.

>> I THINK IF I NEED AN HOUR TO DESCRIBE MY FATHER, I NEED DAYS TO DESCRIBE MY MOTHER.

SHE'S SUCH AN AMAZING PERSON.

AND I THINK THAT SHE IS THE ONE WHO HELD HIS MESSAGE AND TOOK IT EVERYWHERE ALL OVER THE WORLD.

SHE'S SOMEONE WHO IS A TRUE ROLE MODEL NOT ONLY FOR ME BUT FOR ALL PALESTINIANS.

I THINK THAT MY MOTHER HAD TWO CHOICES -- EITHER TO STAY UPSET AND SAD ABOUT THE FACT THAT HER HUSBAND WAS ILLEGALLY TAKEN AWAY FROM HER, OR TO STRUGGLE AND TAKE HIS MESSAGE ALL OVER THE WORLD.

OF COURSE, SHE CHOSE THE SECOND.

SHE'S SUCH AN AMAZING STRONG WOMAN, SHE'D EDUCATED.

SHE LAUNCHED THE CAMPAIGN AND THEN LAUNCHED HIS INTERNATIONAL CAMPAIGN.

SHE'S MET WITH ALL THE PROMINENT LEADERS ALL OVER THE WORLD INCLUDING MANDELA HIMSELF.

AND HER EFFORTS WILL NEVER BE FORGOTTEN.

AT LEAST NOT FROM US, HER CHILDREN.

AND I THINK THAT SHE IS STILL GOING -- SHE NEVER STOPPED.

AND IT PAINS ME TO SEE HER PAIN RIGHT NOW SEEING THE CHILDREN OF GAZA.

I KNOW HOW MUCH THAT'S TAKING A TOLL ON HER, AS WELL IN ADDITION TO THAT WHAT MY FATHER IS CURRENTLY GOING THROUGH.

BUT AT THE SAME TIME, SHE IS A STRONG WOMAN, AND SHE HAS NEVER STOPPED WORKING FOR THE RIGHTS OF THE WOMEN OF PALESTINE EVEN BEFORE WORKING IN POLITICS OR ANYTHING LIKE THAT.

SHE'S A VERY -- VERY INTERESTED IN THAT TOPIC AND HAS MADE GREAT ACHIEVEMENTS.

>> WHAT SURPRISED YOU MOST, SOPHIA, ABOUT FADWA?

>> YOU KNOW, I THINK SHE'S GOT A VERY STRONG VOICE.

YOU KNOW, WE WERE FILMING HER DURING A BIG HUNGER STRIKE, AND SHE WAS TAKING THE STAGE.

SHE ON MICROPHONES SPEAKING TO BIG CROWDS, ADDRESSING PEOPLE -- >> MARWAN'S HUNGER STRIKE.

>> MARWAN'S HUNGER STRIKE IN 2017, THAT'S RIGHT.

AND SHE WAS SPEAKING TO THE PEOPLE.

SHE WAS VERY PASSIONATE, FOR LOUD.

SHE REALLY CONTROLLED THE MIC.

AND I FOUND THAT FASCINATING.

THEN WHAT WAS SO WONDERFUL IS WHEN WE WENT HOME WITH HER AND I WOULD FILM HER SITTING AROUND THE SOFA WITH HER GRANDCHILDREN, AND THOSE -- I WAS HONORED AND PRIVILEGED TO HAVE ACCESS TO THAT.

INTHE -- I THINK THE ABILITY TO SWITCH ON WHEN SHE HAS SO MUCH GOING ON PRIVATELY TO SWITCH ON THAT STRONG FACE AND STILL SPEAK TO THE CROWDS AND PEOPLE IN A PASSIONATE SORT OF GENTLE WAY, I THOUGHT THAT WAS A VERY BEAUTIFUL ABILITY THAT SHE HAD.

>> YOU SAID -- YOU KNOW, A COUPLE OF SECOND AGO, YOU TALKED TO PALESTINIANS AND ISRAELIS ONE OF THEM WAS YOSI BAILEN, RIGHT?

LET'S PUT THIS CASE FIRST AND FOREMOST SO THAT EVERYBODY KNOWS WHAT MARWAN HAS BEEN ACCUSED OF.

THEY BASICALLY HAVE GIVEN HIM FIVE LIFE SENTENCES.

THEY SAY THAT HE WAS A LEADER OF THE SECOND INTERFADA, AND THAT NOT ONLY THAT, HE WAS THE LEADER OF THESE BRIGADES THAT THEN CREATED -- THERE WERE MURDERS AND THE -- HE DENIES EVERYTHING.

HE'S A POLITICAL LEADER, HE SAYS.

AND YOU TALKED TO THE FORMER ISRAELI JUSTICE MURDER AND PARTICIPANT IN THE OSLO NEGOTIATIONS.

MARWAN HIMSELF SUPPORTED THE OSLO PEACE ACCORDS WHICH WERE RECOGNIZED BY THE -- BY YASSER ARAFAT.

AND IT WAS A ROAD THEY HOPED TOWARD PEACE WITH ISRAEL.

LET US PLAY THE YOSI BAILEN SOUND BITE FROM YOUR FILM.

>> HE USED TERROR, AND IT WAS IN MY VIEW A HUGE MISTAKE BY HIM.

BUT IS MARWAN A TERRORIST?

I THINK THAT HE IS NOT A TERRORIST WHO JUST WANTS TO KILL ALL ISRAELIS OR WHATEVER.

I CALLED UPON RELEASING HIM FROM DAY ONE.

I SAID SOMEBODY -- A POLITICAL LEADER SHOULD NOT BE IN JAIL.

>> SO EXPAND A LITTLE BIT ON WHAT MORE YOU HEARD FROM THE ISRAELI SIDE.

>> WHEN WE DECIDED TO MAKE THIS FILM, APART FROM INITIALLY CONTACTING THE FAMILY IN RAMALLAH, WE WANTED TO GET AN IDEA OF OUTSIDE OF PALESTINE AND WHO SUPPORTED MARWAN AND WHAT THEY THOUGHT OF HIM.

WE WANTED TO BE ABLE TO MAKE A FILM THAT SPOKE TO MANY PEOPLE.

SO WE TRACKED YOSI BAILEN DOWN.

HE KINDLY GAVE US AN INTERVIEW.

WE WENT TO HIS HOUSE, MET HIS WIFE.

AND THAT WAS THE FIRST TIME WE REALLY SPOKE POLITICALLY ABOUT MARWAN.

AND IT WAS THROUGH YOSI BAILEN THAT WE FELT WE COULD MAKE A FILM THAT WASN'T JUST A VERY PRO-PALESTINIAN FILM ABOUT A PALESTINIAN LEADER IN JAIL, BUT ABOUT SOMEONE THAT ACTUALLY THE ISRAELIS WERE INTERESTED IN.

BACK DURING OSLO, MARWAN USED TO WORK WITH YOSI.

THEY TRAVELED TOGETHER.

HE WAS LIKED, AND IT WAS ALWAYS MARWAN WHO WAS GOING AND SAYING, COME ON, WE NEED TO MAINTAIN THIS MODEL FOR PEACE FOR IT TO LAST.

SO HE GAVE US THE CONFIDENCE THAT MARWAN WAS INTERESTING FOR ISRAEL.

AND THAT WAS NEEDED BECAUSE THERE WOULD BE NO POINT OTHER TOLLWAYS MAKE A FILM THAT -- OTHERWISE TO MAKE A FILM THAT NO ONE IN ISRAEL SUPPORTED, AN INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY THOUGHT WAS A COMPLETE TERRORIST.

>> CAN WE BRING UP THE CURRENT AND THE LATEST POLL FIGURES ON MARWAN'S POPULARITY?

SO HE IS THE MOST POPULAR PALESTINIAN POLITICAL FIGURE.

IN DECEMBER, 2023, MONTHS AFTER OCTOBER 7th, HE SHOWS MORE SUPPORT THAN EITHER THE HAMAS LEADER AND FAR MORE THAN PRESIDENT MAHMOUD ABBAS.

HOW DO YOU, SOPHIA, ACCOUNT FOR HIS POPULARITI?

>> I MEAN, YOU KNOW, WE INTERVIEWED PEOPLE ON THE STREETS.

WE WANTED TO SPEAK TO PEOPLE OUT OF THE FAMILY.

AND EVERYONE WE ASKED FROM STUDENTS TO ELDERLY PEOPLE IN THE MARKET, MARWAN, EVERYONE SAID HE IS AN HONEST MAN.

HEEFTS A MAN OF THE STREET.

WE KNOW WHERE HE COMES FROM.

AND HE'S SITTING IN JAIL NOW, AND WE WOULD WANT HIM TO REPRESENT US.

HE'S A FIGURE THAT WE BELIEVE IN.

AND THAT'S IMPORTANT.

AND I HOPE THAT WE CAN SPREAD THE MESSAGE, AND I HOPE THROUGH THIS FILM WE CAN LET MORE PEOPLE KNOW ABOUT MARWAN.

HE'S SITTING IN JAIL.

HE'S EDUCATED, EDUCATING HIMSELF CONTINUOUSLY, AND HE'S EDUCATING THE NEXT GENERATION.

>> ARAB, I NEED TO YOU ASK.

MARWAN BARGUTI IS THE MOST POPULAR PALESTINIAN LEADER AT THE MOMENT, AND HE'S IN JAIL.

HAD HE BEEN ABLE TO TAKE PART IN THE PREVIOUS ELECTIONS WHICH NEVER HAPPENED, IT'S CONSIDERED THAT HE WOULD HAVE WON AS THE INDEPENDENT CANDIDATE THAT HE PRESENTED HIMSELF AS.

DO YOU BELIEVE, AND ARE YOU SURPRISED, THAT NOW SINCE OCTOBER 7th -- OBVIOUSLY THE FILM WAS DONE BEFORE OCTOBER THE 7th.

BUT SINCE OCTOBER THE 7th, SO MUCH MORE SPOTLIGHT HAS NOW COME TO HIM BECAUSE HE'S NEITHER HAMAS NOR FATTAH, HE'S A DIFFERENT -- HE'S NOT ONE OF THOSE FACTIONS.

>> SO I THINK THAT THE SPOTLIGHT IS ON HIM BECAUSE MY FATHER HASN'T STARTED STRUGGLING FOR THE PALESTINIANS'S RIGHTS FOR A YEAR OR TWO.

HE'S BEEN DOING THAT FOR MORE THAN 50 YEARS NOW.

AND AS SOPHIA MENTIONED, HE DIDN'T ONLY PLAY A ROLE IN LEADING THE PALESTINIAN PEOPLE TOWARD AN UPRISING, BUT ALSO IN THE PEACE PROCESS.

AND I THINK THAT IT ONLY MAKES SENSE THAT HE GETS THIS -- THIS MUCH ATTENTION AND AT THE SAME TIME UNFORTUNATELY HE'S BEING TARGETED PERSONALLY BY THE ISRAELI PRISON AUTHORITY.

AFTER OCTOBER THE 7th, HE HAS BEEN MOVED TO SOLITARY CONFINEMENT.

HE'S BEEN TRANSFERRED TO FOUR DIFFERENT PRISONS IN THE LAST THREE MONTHS.

WE KNOW ABOUT VERY HARSH CONDITIONS LIKE INHUMANE CONDITIONS THAT HE'S GOING THROUGH.

HE'S PUT IN A CELL THAT IS A VERY, YOU KNOW, DOESN'T HAVE ELECTRICITY, DOESN'T HAVE HYGIENE, CLOTHES, ANY HUMAN -- THAT ANY HUMAN WOULD NEED.

AND THIS PAINS ME SO MUCH BECAUSE HE DOES NOT BELONG THERE.

HE BELONGS AMONGST THE PALESTINIAN PEOPLE.

HE IS A FIGURE THAT IS A UNIFYING FIGURE FOR THE PALESTINIAN PEOPLE, AND HE'S ALSO SOMEONE WHO STRUGGLED HIS WHOLE LIFE FOR PEACE.

AND FOR PEACE NOT ONLY FOR THE PALESTINIAN PEOPLE BUT ALSO FOR THE REGION.

BUT I THINK THAT MAYBE THE ISRAELI GOVERNMENT IS NOT INTERESTED IN A FIGURE THAT IS WORKING FOR A TRUE TWO-STATE SOLUTION, JUST NOT ANY KIND OF PEACE.

THIS IS WHY THEY ARE TARGETING HIM RIGHT NOW.

AND HE'S -- HE'S, OF COURSE -- WE KNOW THAT LIKE, OF COURSE, I'M SCARED AND CONCERNED ABOUT HIS LIFE AS HIS SON.

>> ARAB, I WANT TO ASK YOU THE FINAL QUESTION BECAUSE NOT JUST PALESTINIANS SAY HE SHOULD BE THE LEADER BUT FORMER HEAD OF ISRAELI SECURITY FORCES CALLED YOUR FATHER THE ONLY LEADER WHO CAN LEAD PALESTINIANS TO A STATE ALONGSIDE ISRAEL.

BUT THEN YOU MUST ALSO KNOW BECAUSE YOU'VE JUST REFERRED TO THE ISRAELIS, THEY RELEASED YAYA SINWA.

YOUR FATHER WAS DENIED RELEASE IN THE EXCHANGE.

THEY RELEASED SINWA WHO WENT ON AND LED THIS CATASTROPHE AGAINST ISRAEL.

DO YOU THINK THAT THAT PLAYS INTO IT, AS WELL, THAT EVEN THOUGH HE MIGHT BE SEEN AS SOMEONE WHO COULD BE A UNIFYING LEADER, THAT THAT FEAR IS ALSO EXISTING IN ISRAEL?

>> WELL, I THINK THAT ANYONE WITH THE RIGHT MIND WOULD LOOK AT MY FATHER AND WOULD SEE THAT HE'S SOMEONE WHO HAS BEEN VERY BRAVE IN THE PEACE PROCESS.

HE'S SOMEONE WHO HAS TAKEN THESE STEPS TO COLLECT THE PALESTINIAN PEOPLE AND TO UNIFY THE PALESTINIAN PEOPLE INTO THE TWO-STATE SOLUTION.

AND HE DIDN'T SHY AWAY FROM THAT.

SO ANYONE WHO LIKE FIGURES IN ISRAEL WHO THINKS THAT HE CAN PLAY A ROLE IN THE FUTURE OF THIS CAUSE AND WHAT WILL HAPPEN AND HOW WE WILL GET TO PEACE, OBVIOUSLY KNOWS WHAT THEY'RE TALKING ABOUT.

AND I -- FOR ME, I JUST WANT TO SAY THAT ALL I CARE ABOUT AS HIS SON TO BE VERY HONEST WITH YOU IS THAT HE IS SAFE.

THAT HE'S RELEASED.

AND THAT, OF COURSE, THE MAIN PRIORITY FOR EVERY SINGLE PALESTINIAN IS FOR THE CEASE-FIRE AND STOPPING THE GENOCIDE BECAUSE THEY WANT TO BE SENSITIVE TO OUR PEOPLE IN GAZA THAT ARE GOING THROUGH SOMETHING THAT WE'VE NEVER SEEN BEFORE.

>> ARAB BARGUTI, SOPHIA SCOTT.

THANK YOU SO MUCH.

THE FILM CAN BE SEEN ON STREAMING.

>> AT THE MOMENT.

>> AND YOU HOPE FOR A BROADER BROADCAST SO PEEK CAN GET TO KNOW THIS MAN.

>>> LEADERSHIP IS AT PLAY AS NIKKI HALEY SUSPENDS HER PRESIDENTIAL CAMPAIGN AFTER LOSING TO DONALD TRUMP IN YESTERDAY'S REPUBLICAN SUPER TUESDAY PRIMARIES.

SO WHERE WILL SHE CHOOSE TO SEND HER DELEGATES AND HER VOTERS?

A KEY ISSUE DIVIDING THE PARTY IS REPRODUCTIVE RIGHTS WHERE HALEY HAS A MUCH MORE NUANCED VIEW THAN TRUMP OR HARD-LINE REPUBLICANS LIKE THE ALABAMA SUPREME COURT JUSTICES WHICH CAUSED SUCH A NATIONWIDE UPROAR WITH ITS RULING JEOPARDIZING THE POSSIBILITIES OF IVF FOR FAMILIES WHO ARE TRYING TO CONCEIVE.

NOW IN HER RECENT PIECE, "IVF AND THE GOP," MONA CHARIN FROM THE BULWARK SITES DETAILS THE CONFLICT BETWEEN LEGISLATION AND FOR TEST TREATMENTS.

AND SHE'S JOINING MICHELLE MARTIN TO DISCUSS HOW CONSERVATIVES CAN MAINTAIN VOTER SUPPORT.

>> THANKS.

MONA CHARIN, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

>> MY PLEASURE.

>> COULD JUST START BY TALKING A LITTLE ABOUT YOUR OWN THOUGHTS ABOUT WHEN LIFE BEGINS?

I KNOW YOU HAVE YOU'VE PREVIOUSLY IDENTIFIED YOURSELF AS A MEMBER OF THE PRO-LIFE MOVEMENT.

I MEAN, AND OBVIOUSLY THESE DECISIONS ARE ALWAYS COMPLICATED.

AS BRIEFLY AS YOU CAN, IF YOU DESCRIBE HOW YOU CAME TO THAT DECISION FOR YOURSELF, THAT THAT'S WHERE YOU PLANT YOUR FEET.

WHAT INFORMS THAT DECISION FOR YOU?

>> MY PATH WAS QUITE DIFFERENT, I THINK, FROM MOST PEOPLE.

I DID NOT GROW UP IN A RELIGIOUS HOUSEHOLD.

I DIDN'T COME BY THIS THAT ROUTE.

BUT I STUDIED THE FOOTHILLS ON FEE OF LAW -- PHILOSOPHY OF LAW IN COLLEGE, OF COURSE, AND ONE OF THE SORT OF BROAD TOPICS WE ADDRESSED WAS ABORTION.

I WAS ASSIGNED TO DO READING ON IT.

IT SEEMED TO ME THAT THE MOST -- THE MOST MORAL POSITION WOULD BE ONE THAT TOOK LIFE SERIOUSLY, TREATED IT AS SACRED.

AND OF COURSE THERE'S ALWAYS AN UNDERSTANDING THAT PREGNANCY IS UNLIKE ANYTHING ELSE IN HUMAN EXPERIENCE.

AND THERE ARE COMPETING RIGHTS.

BUT I FOUND MYSELF VERY MUCH ON THE SIDE OF TRYING TO DO EVERYTHING POSSIBLE TO PREVENT ABORTION WHENEVER POSSIBLE.

BUT WITHIN THE FRAMEWORK OF UNDERSTANDING THAT THERE ARE CERTAIN SITUATIONS WHERE THE MOTHER'S RIGHTS NEED TO PREVAIL FOR HER HEALTH, FOR HER LIFE, SITUATIONS.

>> YOU ARE KNOWN AS A CONSERVATIVE WRITER, POLICY ANALYST.

YOU'VE BEEN A SPEECHWRITER IN REPUBLICAN ADMINISTRATIONS, ET CETERA.

SO YOU WOULD SAY WHAT?

YOU -- YOU'VE SORT OF DESCRIBED YOURSELF AS PRO-LIFE AS PART OF THE PRO-LIFE MOVEMENT BUT PART OF THE MUSHY MIDDLE.

WOULD THAT BE FAIR?

>> SO COMPLETELY FAIR.

LOOK, DURING THE LAST 15 YEARS OR SO I HAVE BEEN WRITING A GREAT DEAL ABOUT CIVIL SOCIETY EFFORTS TO HELP MOMS WHO FIND THEMSELVES WITH CRISIS PREGNANCIES AND WANT AN ALTERNATIVE.

SO THAT'S BEEN MY FOCUS.

I HELPED TO FOUND A JEWISH ORGANIZATION CALLED IN SHIFRA'S ARMS WHICH IS A NONPROFIT THAT HELPS WOMEN WHO HAVE CRISIS PREGNANCIES AND NEIL THEY NEED THE -- FEEL THEY NEED THE SUPPORT TO CARRY ON WITH THE PREGNANCY.

IN SHIFRA'S ARMS WAS NEVER ABOUT CHANGING THE LAWS.

IT WAS ABOUT JUST HELPING WOMEN AND BABIES.

AND I HAVE BEEN VERY COMFORTABLE WITH THAT APPROACH TO THE ISSUE, AND I HAVE BEEN A LITTLE DISAPPOINTED THAT IN THE WAKE OF THE DOBBS DECISION, THE LARGER PRO-LIFE MOVEMENT RATHER THAN STEPPING UP AND SAYING NOW IS OUR OPPORTUNITY TO PROVIDE MORE SUPPORT FOR WOMEN AND WOULD-BE MOMS TO MAKE THEIR LIVES EASIER, TO MAKE IT EASIER FOR THEM TO CHOOSE LIFE, THE -- THE EFFORT SEEMED TO BE VERY PUNITIVE.

AND TO MAKE IT DIFFICULT EVEN TO GET BIRTH CONTROL THROUGH THE MAIL.

AND SO I'VE BEEN STRESSED THAT THAT HAS BEEN THE REACTION.

>> AS WE ARE SPEAKING NOW, ONE OF THE REASONS WE CALLED YOU OBVIOUSLY IS THIS DECISION BY THE ALABAMA SUPREME COURT.

THE ALABAMA SUPREME COURT ISSUED A DECISION LAST MONTH IN A PAIR OF WRONGFUL DEATH CASES WHICH WERE BROUGHT BY COUPLES WHO HAD FROZEN EMBRYOS WHO HAD BEEN ACCIDENTALLY DESTROYED AT A FERTILITY CLINIC.

THE COURT RULED THAT THESE FROZEN EMBRYOS SHOULD BE CONSIDERED CHILDREN UNDER STATE LAW.

YOU KNOW, A LOT OF PEOPLE WHO HAVE BEEN CRITICS OF THE DOBBS DECISION ARE PEOPLE WHO SUPPORT MORE EXPANSIVE ABORTION RIGHTS.

WE TOLD YOU SO, THIS IS EXACTLY WHAT WAS GOING TO HAPPEN.

AND I JUST WONDERED IF YOU FELT THAT WAY, TOO?

OR WHAT WAS YOUR REACTION WHEN YOU HEARD THIS DECISION?

>> WELL, I CERTAINLY UNDERSTAND THE REACTION OF PEOPLE WHO DON'T FOLLOW THESE THINGS CLOSELY.

YOU KNOW, THE REACTION WAS, SOUNDS LIKE NOW THEY'RE COMING AFTER IVF, RIGHT?

AND IT FELT THAT WAY.

IN REALITY, THE ALABAMA LAW AT ISSUE REALLY DIDN'T HAVE ANYTHING TO DO WITH DOBBS, IT WAS ON THE BOOKS.

I GUESS IT'S POSSIBLE THAT THE JUDGES OF THE ALABAMA SUPREME COURT FELT EMBOLDENED TO RULE AS THEY DID.

BUT -- >> THEY FELT THEY WOULDN'T BE OVERTURNED, THAT'S THE ARGUMENT.

THEY FELT THE SUPREME COURT HAD OPENED THE DOOR AND THEREFORE THEY WERE GOING TO WALK THROUGH IT.

AND I DO WANT TO NOTE FOR CLARITY THAT THE RULING DOES NOT BAN IN VITRO FERTILIZATION.

>> CORRECT.

>> BUT THE RESPONSE TO THAT IS THAT AT LEAST THREE CLINICS STOPPED TREATMENT IN THE WAKE OF THE RULING BEING CONCERNED THAT IT WOULD OPEN THE DOOR TO LEGISLATION THAT WOULD BASICALLY DESTROY THEM.

>> THE REASON THE CLINIC STOPPED FUNCTIONING IS BECAUSE THEIR LEGAL LIABILITY AS A RESULT OF THE SUPREME COURT DECISION WOULD HAVE BEEN INSUPPORTABLE.

IF A FERTILIZED EMBRYO IS A PERSON, THEN ANY FORM OF -- ANY FORM OF NEGLIGENCE ON THE PART OF THE CLINIC OR EVEN IF THE POWER GOES OUT OR, YOU KNOW, YOU CAN IMAGINE A MILLION SCENARIOS.

SOMEONE DROPS A PIPET, THAT COULD BE A CAUSE FOR A WRONGFUL DEATH SUIT AND WOULD BE UNSUSTAINABLE TO PRACTICE IN VITRO FERTILIZATION AS IT IS USUALLY PRACTICED IN THE UNITED STATES UNDER THOSE CONDITIONS.

SO MY REACTION, I WAS MOSTLY INTERESTED TO SEE ALL OF THESE PEOPLE CAME OUT OF THE WOODWORK TO SAY, WELL, I HAD IVF, AND THESE ARE PRO-LIFE, REPUBLICAN WOMEN.

I HAD IVF, AND I -- IT WAS A LIFESAVER FOR US, FOR MY HUSBAND AND ME, OR YOU KNOW, MY PARTNER AND ME.

WE WERE ABLE TO HAVE CHILDREN WE NEVER WOULD HAVE BEEN ABLE TO HAVE.

AND WE REGARD THAT AS A PRO-LIFE STANCE.

SO CERTAIN REPUBLICANS IMMEDIATELY RECOGNIZING THAT THIS ISSUE HAS NOW DAMAGED THEM AT THE -- AT THE -- AT THE POLLING BOOTH IN CASE AFTER CASE.

THEY WERE EAGER TO REJECT THE FINDING, TO EXPRESS THEIR SUPPORTS FOR IVF, TO SAY THAT THEY ARE COMPLETELY FOR IT.

BUT OF COURSE THIS FLIES IN THE FACE OF OTHER THINGS THAT THE REPUBLICANS HAVE DONE IN THE RECENT PAST SUCH AS APPROVING OF 160 MEMBERS OF THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES CO-SPONSORED LEGISLATION THAT WOULD DECLARE THAT LIFE BEGINS AT CONCEPTION.

WHAT I WAS SAYING IS THEY OBVIOUSLY HAVEN'T THOUGHT THIS THROUGH.

IF LIFE BEGINS AT CONCEPTION AND A FERTILIZED EMBRYO IS A HUMAN BEING DESERVING OF ALL THE PROTECTION OF THE CONSTITUTION, THEN YOU CANNOT PRACTICE IVF.

IT'S INCOMPATIBLE BECAUSE THE RISK TO THE EMBRYO IS TOO GREAT.

AND OF COURSE TO THE CLINICS.

SO THERE WAS THAT REACTION, BUT I WAS ALSO -- I ALSO WANTED TO POINT OUT AS SOMEBODY WHO IS VERY FAMILIAR WITH THE WHOLE IVF PROCESS, NAMELY MY HUSBAND AND I, WE DID IT MANY YEARS AGO, THAT IT IS POSSIBLE TO APPROACH IVF IN A CONSCIENTIOUS FASHION.

THAT, YOU KNOW -- AND PEOPLE DO.

PEOPLE MAKE DECISIONS ABOUT HANDLING -- AN EMBRYO THAT CAN BE VERY SENSITIVE TO THE UNIQUE FOR OF WHAT YOU'VE CREATED THERE.

THESE THINGS ARE NOT SO EASY AS A -- OR CLEAN AND BRIGHT AS A MORAL MATTER TO BE ABLE TO SAY THAT, FOR EXAMPLE, A COUPLE, A FRIEND OF MINE, THEIR FAMILY HAS A HISTORY OF TRISOME 18, A TERRIBLE GENETIC DISORDER.

AND SO THEY DID IVF, AND THEY WERE ABLE TO SEGREGATE THE EMBRYOS THAT WERE CARRIERS OF THIS DISEASE AND ONLY TRANSFER THE HEALTHY EMBRYOS.

DOES THAT VIOLATE THE MOST STRICT INTERPRETATION OF A LIFE BEGINS AT CONCEPTION IDEA OF LIFE?

IT DOES.

IT DOES.

BUT IS IT IN THE END WORSE THAN MANY OTHER THINGS THAT HAPPEN IN THIS WORLD?

NO.

YOU KNOW, IN THE -- WEIGHING IN THE BALANCE IT'S NOT SO CLEAR TO ME THAT THE DOCTRINAIRE LIFE ALWAYS HAS TO BE PROTECTED NO MATTER WHAT POSITION IS REALLY THE RIGHT ONE.

AND SOMETIMES I THINK OUR MORAL INTUITION IS A GOOD GUIDE, NOT JUST A BRIGHT LINE TEST.

>> NOW THE QUESTION I'M ASKING YOU IS AS A CONSERVATIVE, I DON'T KNOW IF YOU STILL IDENTIFY AS A REPUBLICAN, I DON'T KNOW.

>> I DON'T.

>> EVERYTHING THAT'S HAPPENED -- >> I DON'T.

>> THAT'S WHY ONE HAS TO ASK IS WHAT -- WHAT DO REPUBLICANS DO NOW?

I MEAN, WHAT DO THEY DO NOW?

IT SEEMS NOW THAT THE WHOLE QUESTION OF LIFE BEGINS AT CONCEPTION IS CAUSING SOME VERY SERIOUS DIFFICULTIES FOR PEOPLE THAT THEY CARE ABOUT, WHAT -- WHAT IS THE MAINSTREAM POSITION?

AND WHAT SHOULD -- >> I DO NOT KNOW WHAT THEY ARE GOING TO DO.

I CAN ONLY SPEAKS FOR MYSELF AND OTHERS LIKE ME, THAT WE ARE STILL -- WE STILL REGARD ABORTION AS A TRAGEDY, AND WE STILL WISH THAT MANY, MANY FEWER WOMEN HAD TO RESORT TO THEM OR FELT THEY HAD TO.

AND IF IT WERE UP TO ME, THERE WOULD BE A LOT MORE SUPPORT FOR WOMEN WITH CRISIS PREGNANCIES, THERE WOULD BE A LOT MORE SOCIAL SUPPORT, FINANCIAL SUPPORT, THE WHOLE NINE YARDS, SO THAT WE COULD WELCOME MORE CHILDREN INTO THE WORLD.

AND THAT IS MY CURRENT POSTURE.

ALL OF THESE EFFORTS TO LIMIT HOW BIRTH CONTROL CAN BE PRESCRIBED THROUGH THE MAIL, WHETHER SOMETHING IS -- WHETHER YOU CAN ARREST AS TEXAS DID A WOMAN WHO YOU THINK IS HEADING OUT -- THEY HAD SOME CRAZY PROPOSAL THAT IF THEY -- IF SOME CITIZEN THOUGHT SOMEBODY WAS DRIVING YOU OUT OF STATE TO GET AN ABORTION, THEY COULD INTERFERE.

ALL OF THOSE THINGS ARE WAY BEYOND THE PALE, AND I THINK THAT WE SHOULD RETURN THE EMPHASIS TO MOTHERS AND BABIES AND TRYING TO HELP THEM.

>> YOU KNOW, IVF IS NOT WITHOUT ETHICAL CHALLENGES, TOO.

YOU WERE KIND ENOUGH TO SHARE YOU EXPERIENCED IVF YOURSELF AND THAT YOU AND YOUR HUSBAND MADE THE DECISION THAT YOU WOULD IMPLANT ANY HEALTHY EMBRYO.

IN OTHER SITUATIONS THAT HAS RESULTED IN PEOPLE CARRYING EIGHT PREGNANCIES.

AND I DON'T THINK THE HUMAN BODY IS NOT REALLY BUILT FOR THAT.

>> RIGHT.

SO -- >> TO HEAR ABOUT THE SUCCESSFUL OUTCOMES, WE DON'T HEAR ABOUT THE UNSUCCESSFUL OUTCOMES, RIGHT, NOW THAT PEOPLE WHO ARE OUTSIDE OF THE WORLD OF ASSISTED REPRODUCTIVE TECHNOLOGIES HAVE BECOME PRIVY TO SOME OF THESE THINGS.

WHERE DO WE GO WITH THIS?

>> THERE'S BEEN -- THAT'S NOT SUCH A HARD ETHICAL QUESTION BECAUSE THERE HAS BEEN ADVANCEMENT IN MEDICAL ETHICS AND MEDICAL TECHNOLOGY SINCE THOSE EARLY DAYS WHEN YOU DID HAVE A COUPLE OF VERY HIGH-PROFILE CASES OF WOMEN GIVING BIRTH TO MULTIPLE, YOU KNOW, FIVE, SEVEN, EIGHT KIDS -- THERE WAS ONE WOMAN WHO GAVE BIRTH TO EIGHT.

BUT NOW THAT IS NO LONGER DONE.

THEY DON'T TRANSFER AT ONCE THAT MANY EMBRYOS.

>> BUT THAT'S WHAT GIVES RISE TO THE QUESTION OF FERTILIZED EMBRYOS THAT MAY OR MAY NOT BE IMPLANTED WHICH SPEAKS TO YOUR POINT.

WHAT I'M SAYING IS WHERE SHOULD WE GO WITH THIS NOW?

YOU SEE MY POINT?

THAT'S HOW THIS SITUATION AROSE IN ALABAMA BECAUSE THERE WERE EMBRYOS THAT HAD NOT BEEN IMPLANTED.

>> OH, THEY WERE FROZEN -- >> YES.

>> RIGHT.

BUT YOU CAN -- BY THE WAY, IT'S NOT SO EASY TO GET EMBRYOS, ESPECIALLY WHEN PEOPLE HAVE BEEN DEALING WITH INFERTILITY AND A LOT -- I GUESS SOME PEOPLE GET LOTS.

BUT MOST PEOPLE DON'T GET THAT MANY.

SO THEY GET, SAY THEY GET FIVE, GRAND TOTAL OF FIVE EMBRYOS AFTER SEVERAL CYCLES.

THEN THE COUPLE CAN CHOOSE IN AN IDEAL SITUATION, THEY CAN CHOOSE TO TRANSFER -- I SAY TRANSFER, NOT IMPLANT BECAUSE THE IMPLANTATION IS UP TO THE EMBRYO, NOT UP TO THE DOCTORS.

ALL THEY CAN DO IS TRANSFER IT AND HOPE FOR THE BEST.

THEN THE COUPLE CAN CHOOSE TO TRANSFER, SAY, TWO EMBRYOS, AND THEN IF THEY ARE SUCCESSFUL IN A PREGNANCY, GREAT.

IF THEY GET ONE OR POSSIBLY TWIN PREGNANCY, GREAT.

AND THEN A FEW YEARS LATER THEY CAN COME BACK AND GET TWO MORE.

SO IT ISN'T -- IT ISN'T CONTRARY TO THE IDEA OF TREATING THE EMBRYOS AS SPECIAL AND AS DESERVING OF A CHANCE AT LIFE THAT YOU DO IT IN A SEQUENTIAL FASHION.

>> OUR POLITICAL SYSTEM DOESN'T SEEM REALLY EQUIPPED RIGHT NOW TO HANDLE NUANCE OR -- OR ON COMPROMISE, RIGHT?

I GUESS I'M WONDERING -- I KNOW WHAT YOU WISH WOULD HAPPEN, BUT WHAT DO YOU THINK WOULD HAPPEN REALISTICALLY?

WHAT WOULD YOU LIKE TO SEE GOING FORWARD?

>> YOU ARE SO RIGHT THAT OUR ENTIRE CULTURE IS NOT JUST OUR POLITICAL SYSTEM BUT OUR WHOLE CULTURE IS BUILT TO RESIST COMPROMISE.

COMPROMISE IS SEEN AS SURRENDER.

COMPROMISE IS SEEN AS LACKING IN INTEGRITY, WHICH DOES, YOU KNOW, FAILS TO RECOGNIZE THAT OUR SYSTEM, WE HAVE A HUGE MULTICULTURAL MULTIETHNIC, MULTIREGIONAL COUNTRY.

AND IN ORDER FOR IT TO SUCCEED, THERE HAS TO BE COMPROMISE.

I'M VERY PESSIMISTIC ABOUT OTHER ASPECTS OF OUR POLITICAL SYSTEM, THE POPULISM VERSUS DEMOCRACY CONTEST.

BUT I THINK ON THE SUBJECT OF ABORTION YOU HAVE SEEN A REPUBLICAN PARTY THAT IS BEGINNING TO GET THE MESSAGE FROM VOTERS AND IS KIND OF SCURRYING AWAY FROM THE MOST HARD-LINE POSITIONS THAT IT TOOK.

SO I ACTUALLY THINK THEY'RE LISTENING, MICHELLE.

I THINK THEY'RE LISTENING TO THE VOTERS HERE, AND YOU WILL SEE THIS IS AN AWKWARD TIME, THIS IS -- FOR SOME PEOPLE A TRAGIC TIME.

I REALLY FEEL FOR THOSE WOMEN AND MEN, THE FATHERS AND MOTHERS IN ALABAMA WHO, FOR EXAMPLE, WERE JUST ON THE CUSP OF GETTING A TRANSFER.

AND I KNOW HOW MUCH GOES INTO THAT AND HOW MANY MONTHS AND YEARS OF INJECTIONS AND TEARFUL WAITING, AND THEN TO BE TOLD WHEN EVERYTHING IS SET TO GO THAT IT HAS TO BE CANCELED BECAUSE OF A SUPREME COURT DECISION, IT'S -- IT'S AWFUL.

IT'S HEARTBREAKING.

>> A NUMBER OF NEW JOUZ -- NEWS OUTLETS HAVE APPROACHED ALABAMA TO SAY WHERE ARE YOU ON THIS, PARTICULARLY ON IVF.

A LOT OF THEM ARE BEING, YOU KNOW, BEING QUICK TO SAY THEY ABSOLUTELY SUPPORT IVF.

I WONDER IF PART OF THE REASON IS THAT THE PEOPLE WHO TEND TO -- THE PEOPLE WHO UTILIZE IVF TEND TO BE MIDDLE CLASS.

IT'S NOT CHEAP.

I MEAN, MOST PEOPLE'S INSURANCE POLICIES DON'T COVER IT OR COVER ALL OF IT.

SOME DO, BUT IT'S EXPENSIVE.

AND I DON'T KNOW.

IS THERE ANY PART OF YOU THAT WONDER WHETHER SOME OF THIS HAS TO DO WITH CLASS?

THIS IS SOMETHING THAT MIDDLE-CLASS PEOPLE USE AND WANT, AND SO THEREFORE THAT'S WHY THE SYSTEM IS RESPONSIVE TO IT IN WAYS THEY PERHAPS ARE NOT OTHER THINGS?

>> WELL, LOOK, THE REPUBLICAN PARTY IS BECOMING THE PARTY OF THE WORKING CLASS.

AND SO THEY ARE GOING TO BE MORE RESPONSIVE TO THE NEEDS OF WORKING PEOPLE THAN THEY USED TO BE IN THE PAST.

I MEAN, LOOK, FOR MANY, MANY YEARS, THE REPUBLICAN PARTY WAS PRETTY MUCH CO-TERMNOUS WITH THE "WALL STREET JOURNAL" EDITORIAL PAGE.

AND THAT'S JUST NO LONGER TRUE.

SO YEAH, THE CLASS THING MAY PLAY INTO THIS.

>> YOU SAID THAT YOU HOPED THAT -- YOU THINK THAT A MORE NUANCED OR SORT OF -- I DON'T KNOW YOU USED BETTER LANGUAGE THAN I AM, BALANCED POSITION, IS SORTS OF WE'RE HEADING TOWARD IT.

WHEN?

>> WELL, I -- MAYBE A FEW MORE ELECTION CYCLES, WHERE THE MESSAGE GETS THROUGH.

WELL ACTUALLY, IN THE CASE OF ALABAMA, WE'RE SEEING IT ALREADY.

THE ALABAMA LEGISLATURE IS RUSHING TO ENACT LEGISLATION TO MAKE IT CLEAR THAT IVF IS EXEMPTED FROM THE EXTRAUTERINE CHILD THEY CALLED IT.

SO THEY ARE ACTING WITH DISPATCH, AND I THINK IF THERE'S ANOTHER ELECTION CYCLE WHERE ABORTION IS PERCEIVED TO BENEFIT DEMOCRATS, REPUBLICANS WILL SWITCH RAPIDLY.

>> THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR TALKING TO US ONCE AGAIN.

>> MY PLEASURE.

>> AND THAT'S IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.

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THANKS FOR WATCHING.

GOOD-BYE FROM LONDON.