>>> HELLO, EVERYONE.

WELCOME TO AMANPOUR AND COMPANY.

>>> HERE'S WHAT IS COMING UP.

>>> HAS ROCKETS AND MISSILES ARE EXCHANGED ACROSS THE MIDDLE EAST, WE GET THE LATEST FROM OUR REPORTERS ON THE GROUND IN LEBANON AND ISRAEL.

>>> HONG KONG TYCOON FACES A LIFE SENTENCE FOR VIOLATING BEIJING'S NATIONAL SECURITY LAW.

WE DISCUSSED THE CASE WITH HIS SON AND ONE OF THE PEOPLE HEADING UP HIS DEFENSE.

>>> THE REALITY ON UKRAINE'S FRONT LINES.

MY CONVERSATION WITH UKRAINIAN JOURNALIST AND AUTHOR.

>>> WHY WE NEED TO DITCH OUR DOOM AND GLOOM APPROACH TO THE CLIMATE CRISIS.

WE SPEAK WITH DATA SCIENTIST HANNAH RITCHIE.

>>> AMANPOUR AND COMPANY IS MADE POSSIBLE BY THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT, JIM ATWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS, CANDACE QUEEN WE ARE, THE FAMILY FOUNDATION OF NIKKI STRAUSS.

MARK LECHNER, CJ MELVIN, CHARLES ROSENBLUM, PATRICIA U.N., COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES IN OUR COMMUNITIES, BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG.

ADDITIONAL SUPPORT PROVIDED BY THESE FUNDERS, AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

THANK YOU.

>>> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE.

I AM IN LONDON, SITTING IN FOR CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR.

>>> A POLITICAL STORM IS BREWING WITHIN ISRAEL, THAT IS AS POLITICIANS PAST AND PRESENT CALL FOR AN END TO THE WAR IN GAZA.

SAME, THE PUBLIC HAS LOST TRUST IN THE COUNTRY'S GOVERNMENT, WHILE PRIME MINISTER POINTS THE FINGER AT CURRENT PRIME MINISTER REGIMEN AND YAHOO, SAYING, UNDER HIS LEADERSHIP, THE WORK COULD BECOME AN EXISTENTIAL THREAT TO ISRAEL.

THIS, AS FEARS CONTINUE TO GROW OVER A WIDER WAR IN THE MIDDLE EAST.

WHAT COULD HAPPEN NEXT?

LET'S GET TO OUR CONGRESS ON THIS-- CORRESPONDENCE IN EGYPT.

JEREMY, LET'S START WITH YOU FIRST.

A LOT OF TALK TODAY PICKING UP ON THIS STUNNING INTERVIEW WITH CHANNEL 12 IN ISRAEL.

ONE THING OF NOTE THAT HE ALSO SAID IS, HE BELIEVES NEW ELECTIONS SHOULD COME AS SOON AS THE NEXT TWO MONTHS.

THAT IS QUITE TELLING, GIVEN THAT ISRAEL ISN'T SAID TO HAVE NEW ELECTIONS FOR TWO AND HALF YEARS.

WHAT HAS THE RESPONSE BEEN, AND THAT THERE REALISTICALLY BE A SELECTION FOR PRIME MINISTER SOS A FEW MONTHS?

>> LOOK, IT IS CERTAINLY POSSIBLE.

WHAT IS REALLY NOTICEABLE HERE, WE HAVE BEEN HEARING ABOUT RIFTS IN THE WORK CABINET FOR MONTHS NOW.

TENSIONS OVER PLANNING FOR THE NEXT PHASES OF THE WAR, TENSIONS OVER THE ISRAELI MINISTERS AT TIME, BOMBASTIC POLITICAL COMMENTS SEEMING LIKE HE IS ALREADY BEGINNING TO CAMPAIGN AMID A WARTIME EFFORT.

THIS IS THE FIRST TIME WE HAVE REALLY SEEN THESE TENSIONS BUBBLE TO THE SURFACE IN THIS KIND OF WAY.

IT COMES FROM A VOICE WHO HAS A LOT OF AUTHORITY AND RESPECT IN ISRAEL.

THIS IS A FORMER CHIEF OF STAFF OF THE ISRAEL DEFENSE FORCES, HE HAS ALSO LOST A SON AND-- DURING THIS CURRENT WAR IN GAZA.

WHEN HE COMES OUT IN THIS INTERVIEW, WHICH WAS IN PART ABOUT HOW HE IS DEALING WITH THE LOSS OF HIS SON, ALSO MORE BROADLY ABOUT THE FUTURE OF THIS WAR AND GOVERNMENT.

WHEN HE STARTS TO TALK ABOUT THE FACT THAT THERE IS NO TRUST IN THIS GOVERNMENT, IN WHICH HE IS A PART OF, AT LEAST AS A MEMBER OF THE WAR CABINET, THAT IS REALLY NOTABLE.

HE IS SAYING HERE, HE BELIEVES THAT ISRAELIS NEED TO GO TO THE POLLS AND HAVE AN ELECTION IN THE NEXT FEW MONTHS AND WENT AT ISRAELI PRIME MINISTER BENJAMIN NETANYAHU'S CREDIBILITY, WITHOUT NAMING THEM DIRECTLY.

HE SAYS, THOSE THAT BELIEVE HAMAS HAS BEEN FULLY DEFEATED IN NORTHERN GAZA ARE QUOTE, NOT TELLING THE TRUTH.

HE IS ALSO GOING AFTER THIS IDEA OF TWO DUELING PRIORITIES INCREASINGLY IN CONFLICT WITH ONE ANOTHER.

ON ONE HAND, THE OBJECTIVE OF DESTROYING HAMAS, OR THE OTHER, THE OBJECTIVE OF RETURNING ALL OF THE HOSTAGES.

HERE, GADI EISENKOT IS EFFECTIVELY SAYING, THE HOSTAGES NEED TO BE THE PRIORITY OF THE GOVERNMENT SHOULD AGREE TO A SUCCESSION OF HOSTILITIES FOR A LONGER.

OF TIME TO ALLOW FOR ANOTHER DEAL TO FREE HOSTAGES TO EMERGE.

>> IT IS IMPORTANT TO POINT OUT, AS YOU NOTED, GADI EISENKOT IS A REVERED FIGURE IN ISRAEL AND HAS SKIN IN THE GAME, GIVEN THE FACT THAT HE LOST NOT ONLY HIS SON, BUT HIS NEPHEW IN THIS WAR IN GAZA.

THERE IS CONTINUED CONCERNS ABOUT THIS CONFLICT ESCALATING WITHIN THE REGION.

WE CONTINUE TO SEE MORE MISSILES FIRED FROM THE HOUTHIS IN AND PRESIDENT BIDEN HIMSELF ADMITTING THE AIRSTRIKES FOR NOT BEEN A DETERRENT, YET THEY WILL CONTINUE.

WHAT HAS BEEN THE REACTION IN THE ARAB COMMUNITY TO CONCERN OVER THE HOUTHIS, HOW FAR THEY ARE WILLING TO?

IT IS NOTABLE THAT IT IS COMING AT A TIME THAT THE SAUDI'S, WHO OBVIOUSLY THE HOUTHIS HAVE BEEN AT WAR WITH THE LAST SEVERAL YEARS, HAS STEPPED UP PUBLICLY TO LAYOUT THEIR CONDITION ON WHAT IT WOULD TAKE TO REBUILD GAZA IN A PATHWAY TO A TWO STATE SOLUTION.

>> ABSOLUTELY.

FROM THE OUTSIDE OF THIS WAR, ON THE DIPLOMATIC FRONT, LEADERS ACROSS THE REGION HAVE BEEN VOCAL IN CALLING FOR A CEASE-FIRE, CALLING FOR AN END TO ATTACKS ON THE GAZA STRIP BY THE ISRAELI MINISTRY-- MILITARY.

WARNINGS, THE POTENTIAL FOR THAT VIOLENCE TO ESCALATE FOR OTHER GROUPS ACROSS THE REGION.

THAT IS CERTAINLY WHAT WE HAVE SEEN, AT LEAST IN YEMEN WHERE THE IRAN BACKED WILL BE REVELS CONTINUE ALONG THAT RED SEA SHIPPING ROUTE, A HUGE POINT OF CONCERN.

WE HAVE BEEN HEARING REPEATED WARNINGS NOW FROM OFFICIALS AND LEADERS SAYING, THOUGH THE TEXT WILL CONTINUE, SO LONG AS ISRAEL'S ATTACKS ON THE GAZA STRIP DO NOT COME TO AN END.

WE HAVE SEEN THAT IN THE LAST FEW DAYS, THURSDAY, EVEN WITH THE MILITARY SAYING, IT HAS SEEN REPORTS, CONFIRMED REPORTS OF TWO ANTISHIP BALLISTIC MISSILES BEING TAUGHT FIRED.

REBELS HAVE SAID, THEY ARE NOT ONLY TARGETING ISRAELI VESSELS, BUT IS REALLY LATE VESSELS, THOSE LINKED TO THE ALLY OF ISRAELI, INCLUDING THE UNITED STATES.

THEY DID NOT DAMAGE THE CREW, BUT THE CREW REPORTED THEY HAVE SEEN MISSILES LANDING IN THE WATER NEAR THE SHIP.

THIS HAS CONCERN.

WE HAVE BEEN HEARING THE LAST FEW DAYS FROM U.S. MILITARY OFFICIALS, FOLLOWING THE U.S. AND UK AIRSTRIKES CARRIED OUT ACROSS TARGETS IN EUROPE.

THEY SAID, THEY HAVE SIGNIFICANTLY DIMINISHED THE HOUTHIS ABILITY TO CARRY OUT SO MANY ATTACKS IN THE FUTURE.

CLEARLY, WE HAVE SEEN THAT DOWNGRADED.

THIS IS A MUCH SMALLER SCALE THAN WHAT WE HAVE SEEN OVER RECENT.

IN SOME CASES, A BARRAGE OF MISSILES BEING FIRED TOWARD VESSELS, NOW DOWN TO TWO THURSDAY EVENING.

OF COURSE, THE HOUTHIS HAVE SAID, THEY WILL CONTINUE TO FIRE THESE MISSILES .

AS YOU MENTIONED TO ME THAT HAS BEEN ACKNOWLEDGED BY THE U.S. PRESIDENT JOE BIDEN.

HE ACKNOWLEDGED, THE STRIKES HAVE NOT ACTED AS A DETERRENT OF THE U.S. GOVERNMENT OR BIDEN ADMINISTRATION HAD HOPED, UNLESS THOSE STRIKES ARE EXPECTED TO CONTINUE.

WE ARE SEEING THIS BEING REFLECTED ACROSS THE REGION, INCLUDING HERE IN LEBANON, WHERE THE LEBANESE GOVERNMENT NOW ARE SAYING, THEY CAN'T EXPECT TO SEE ANY SORT OF AGREEMENT ON THE SOUTHERN BORDER UNTIL THERE IS A LASTING CEASE-FIRE AGREEMENT IN GAZA.

>>> JEREMY, MEANTIME, THE NOTES FROM NETANYAHU'S PRESS CONFERENCE YESTERDAY, WHERE HE ESSENTIALLY CLOSED THE DOOR TO A PALESTINIAN STATE, STILL COMING AS PRESIDENT BIDEN SPOKE WITH THE PRIME MINISTER FOR THE FIRST TIME TODAY IN JUST ABOUT A MONTH.

WHAT MORE DO WE KNOW ABOUT THEIR CONVERSATION?

>> REALLY NOTABLE THAT IT WAS NEARLY A MONTH SINCE THE LAST TIME THESE TWO LEADERS SPOKE.

A COUPLE OF DAYS AFTER THE ISRAELI PRIME MINISTER ONCE AGAIN CLOSED THE DOOR ON A PALESTINIAN STATE, WE HAVE THIS LATEST CALL.

WE DON'T HAVE ALL THE DETAILS OF THE CALL, BUT CERTAINLY, WE KNOW BEHIND THE SCENES, THERE HAVE BEEN GROWING TENSIONS BEHIND THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION AND ISRAELI GOVERNMENT OVER A NUMBER OF ISSUES.

WHETHER IT IS THE NEXT PHASE OF WAR IN GAZA, WHAT COMES AFTER IN TERMS OF POSTWAR GOVERNANCE, RECONSTRUCTION, OR THIS VERY NOTION OF A PALESTINIAN STATE.

THERE ARE A NUMBER OF ISSUES WHERE DESPITE THE FACT THAT THE U.S. IS CONTINUING TO SUPPORT ISRAEL IN ITS WAR AGAINST HAMAS, THERE ARE CERTAINLY A LOT OF TENSION POINTS.

THE ISRAELI PRIME MINISTER, WE SHOULD NOTE, HAS REPEATEDLY CLOSED THE DOOR ON A PALESTINIAN STATE, INCLUDING THIS CURRENT WAR.

IT IS NOT NECESSARILY ANYTHING NEW.

IT IS NOTABLE IN A SENSE THAT HE DOES STICKING HIS FINGER IN THE EYES OF THE U.S. PRESIDENT, WHO HE AND HIS TEAM OVER THE LAST SEVERAL WEEKS, ESPECIALLY AS SECRETARY OF STATE ANTONY BLINKEN WAS HERE IN ISRAEL.

WE ARE REALLY TRYING TO TALK ABOUT THE LONG-TERM PROSPECTS FOR PEACE IN THE MIDDLE EAST.

TALKING ABOUT THE OPPORTUNITY THIS WORLD MIGHT CREATE FOR PALESTINIAN STATE, FOR INTEGRATING ISRAEL MORE BROADLY INTO THE REGION.

FOR THE ISRAELI PRIME MINISTER TO REITERATE HIS OBJECTIONS AMID THOSE EFFORTS CERTAINLY PUTS HIM AT THE U.S. PRESIDENT ON A COLLISION COURSE.

>> THIS COMES WITH THE LAST PHONE CALL REPORTS THAT THE PRESIDENT ENDED UP HANGING UP, ESSENTIALLY, OR THE PRIME MINISTER.

THINGS WERE THAT TENSE.

I WOULD IMAGINE THINGS ARE SIMILAR BETWEEN THE TWO OF THEM NOW.

THANK YOU SO MUCH.

>>> NEXT, TO HONG KONG, WHERE THE FATE OF TYCOON JIMMY LAI HANGS IN THE BALANCE .

THE 76- YEAR-OLD IS ON TRIAL FOR ALLEGEDLY VIOLATING THE NATIONAL SECURITY LAW IMPOSED BY BEIJING AFTER WIDESPREAD PRO- DEMOCRACY PROTESTS IN 2019 AND 2020.

HE WAS A SUPPORTER OF THAT MOVEMENT.

IN THE SUMMER OF 2020, HE WAS DETAINED IN HIS OWN APPLE DAILY NEWSROOM, ACCUSED OF COLLUDING WITH FOREIGN FORCES AND SEDITION.

LEI HAS PLEADED NOT GUILTY AGAINST ALL CHARGES, BUT FACES LIKE THE HIGH DIVORCE-- LIFE BEHIND BARS.

>> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

SEBASTIAN, YOU WERE OUT IN TAIWAN.

YOU HAVE NOT BEEN ABLE TO TALK TO YOUR DAD, IS THAT CORRECT, SINCE HE WAS ARRESTED SOME THREE YEARS AGO?

>> THAT IS CORRECT.

DAD HAS BEEN IN RESIN FOR MORE THAN 1000 DAYS.

BECAUSE I GO OUT AND, CAMPAIGNED ON HIS BEHALF, I HAVE NOT BEEN ABLE TO GO BACK TO HONG KONG.

>> HOW DO YOU FEEL ABOUT THAT?

DO YOU KNOW HOW HE IS, HOW HE IS FEELING, NOT JUST HIS PHYSICAL HEALTH, BUT HOW HIS MORALE IS?

>> THERE ARE TIMES WHEN I GET PRETTY ANXIOUS.

AT HIS AGE, HE IS 76, OBVIOUSLY, HIS LIFE IS-- HE IS AT AN AGE WHERE ANYTHING COULD HAPPEN TO HIM.

I THINK-- HE SAID HIMSELF ACTUALLY IN AN INTERVIEW HE DID RIGHT BEFORE HE WAS ARRESTED, SOMEONE ASKED HIM IF HE REGRETTED CAMPAIGNING FOR DEMOCRACY, AND HE REPLIES, WELL WHY WOULD I REGRET DOING THE RIGHT THING?

I THINK THAT KEEPS HIM VERY STRONG IN PRISON.

I TRULY BELIEVE THAT.

WHEN SOMEONE GIVES EVERYTHING HE HAS FOR HIS BELIEFS, FOR WHAT HE KNOWS TO BE RIGHT, THAT GIVES HIM TREMENDOUS STRENGTH, EVEN THOUGH OBVIOUSLY AT 76, HAVING BEEN IN RESIN FOR 3 YEARS, IT MAY NOT SEEM LIKE IT.

I THINK THAT IS WHAT IS KEEPING HIM STRONG.

>> I WILL ACTUALLY PLAY A SNIPPET OF THAT INTERVIEW.

YOU SPOKE WITH CNN IN AUGUST 2022.

I WILL ASK FOR YOUR REACTION.

>> OUR FIGHTING FOR FREEDOM HAS SUCH A STRONG RESIDENCE WITH THE WEST, JUST BECAUSE THEY SEE THAT THEY ARE FIGHTING WITH US.

WE ARE FIGHTING WITH THE SAME VALUE.

THEY KNOW IT.

THEY SINCE IT.

THEY SEE THE LOGIC.

THEY SEE THE RIGHTEOUS IN IT.

WE HAVE SUCH A GREAT SUPPORT FROM THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY.

>> YOU ARE A PART OF HIS INTERNATIONAL LEGAL TEAM.

YOU ALSO HAVEN'T TALKED TO HIM, CERTAINLY NOT RECENTLY.

TELL ME HOW IMPORTANT IT IS FOR PEOPLE OUTSIDE, HE REFERRED TO THE U.S., AND OF COURSE HE IS A BRITISH CITIZEN AS WELL.

>> WELL, YOU JUST HEARD A MAN SPEAKING TRUTH TO POWER.

WE OFTEN HEAR THAT PHRASE AND YOU SEE HIM SPEAKING IN SUCH A POWERFUL WAY, BUT HE WAS REALLY STARING DOWN THE BARREL OF A GUN, FACING THE PROSPECT OF A LIFE SENTENCE UNDER THE NATIONAL SECURITY LAW, AND HE COULD BE ANYWHERE.

HE COULD HAVE LEFT AND GONE TO PARIS, LONDON, BE LIVING IN THE U.S., IN THE UK, AND HE HAS CHOSEN TO STAY PUT AND THE TRUTH TO POWER.

HIS CASE COULD NOT BE MORE IMPORTANT.

HE DECIDED TO STAY PUT AND SPEAK FOR OTHER PEOPLE.

IT IS NOT VITAL THAT THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY SPEAK OUT FOR HIM.

SINCE I LAST SPOKE TO HIM LAST YEAR, WE SEE A WELCOME CHANGE IN TERMS OF THE NATIONAL COMMUNITY SPEAKING FOR HIM.

WE NOW HAVE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITIES SPEAKING WITH ONE VOICE.

WE ARE U.S. GOVERNMENT, THE UK GOVERNMENT, THE CANADIAN PARLIAMENT, EUROPEAN PARLIAMENT AND 20 COUNTRIES IN THE COALITION INCLUDING IRELAND, JAPAN, A WIDE RANGE OF COUNTRIES ALL SAYING THAT THIS CASE IS OUTRAGEOUS, THE NATIONAL SECURITY LAW IS FUNDAMENTALLY PROBLEMATIC, CRIMINALIZES DISSENT, SHOULD NOT EXIST IN THE FIRST PLACE, AND WE HAVE SEEN MULTIPLE COUNTRIES CALL FOR HIS IMMEDIATE AND UNCONDITIONAL RELEASE.

THAT IS SOMETHING THAT CALL NEEDS TO GROW EVER LOUDER, PARTICULARLY NEXT WEEK, WHEN CHINA IS FACING THE UNIVERSAL PERIODIC REVIEW PROCESS IN GENEVA.

THAT IS THE OPPORTUNITY FOR EVERY SINGLE COUNTRY AROUND THE WORLD TO TALK FOR HUMAN RIGHTS ABUSES.

JIMMY LAI MUST BE A NAME ON EVERY COUNTRY'S LIPS NEXT WEEK IN GENEVA.

>> MINISTER HAS SIGNED A LETTER CALLING FOR HIS RELEASE AND CORRECT APPLICATION OF JUSTICE.

CHINA, HONG KONG HAVE ACTUALLY CONDEMNED THAT AND THEY HAVE PLENTY OF RESPONSES.

FOR INSTANCE, THEY STRONGLY OPPOSE FOREIGN INTERFERENCE WITH JUDICIAL PROCEEDINGS.

ALSO, THEY GO ON TO SAY, HONG KONG PEOPLE ENJOY FREEDOM OF THE PRESS AND FREEDOM OF SPEECH, WHICH ARE PROTECTED UNDER THE BASIC LAW AND HONG KONG'S BILL OF RIGHTS.

IT STIPULATES THAT SUCH FREEDOMS ENJOYED BY HONG KONG SHALL BE PROTECTED, IN ACCORDANCE WITH THE LAW IN SAFEGUARDING NATIONAL SECURITY.

NONETHELESS, FREEDOM OF SPEECH, FREEDOM OF THE PRESS ARE NOT ABSOLUTE.

HOW DO YOU READ THAT?

IT SEEMS TO WANT TO HAVE ALL THINGS AT ALL TIMES.

>> THAT IS A BLACK IS WHITE STATEMENT.

A COMPLETELY UNTRUE STATEMENT, THE CONTEXT IN HONG KONG CURRENTLY.

I THINK YOU CAN LOOK TO MEET THE OBJECTIVE SOURCES TO SEE HOW UNTRUE THAT STATEMENT IS.

THE CLAIM THAT HONG KONG NOW ENJOYS WONDERFUL PRESS FREEDOM UNDER THE NATIONAL SECURITY LAW IS NOT A CLAIM SUPPORTED BY THE UNITED NATIONS, BY HUMAN RIGHTS WATCH, BUT I AM THE INTERNATIONAL, BY THE FREEDOM COALITION AND OTHER EXPERTS AROUND THE WORLD.

IF YOU LOOK AT REPORTERS AT BORDERS FOR EXAMPLE, WE HAVE SEEN OVER THE PAST FOUR YEARS, HONG KONG HAS PLUMMETED FROM BEING A BEACON OF RITA MY VEXATION IN THE REGION TO A COUNTRY THAT IS LANGUISHING TOWARD THE BOTTOM OF THE LEAGUE TABLE FOR FREEDOM.

THAT STATEMENT IS SIMPLY UNTRUE .

IT IS ALSO CONCERNING TO HEAR CHINA SAYING THAT THEY ALL BORE FOREIGN INTERFERENCE.

THEY DON'T WANT OTHER COUNTRIES TO INTERFERE IN THIS PROCESS.

THEY WANT JUSTICE TO TAKE ITS COURSE.

FIRST OF ALL, THERE IS NO JUSTICE UNDER THE NATIONAL SECURITY LAW.

IT IS A LOT ITSELF THAT HAS BEEN RIGHTLY CONDEMNED UNDER THE UNITED NATIONS.

SECONDLY, CHINA IS SELECTIVE IN THAT.

WE HAVE ALSO SEEN CHINESE SPOKESPEOPLE AND HONG KONG SPOKESPEOPLE ALREADY PREEMPTING THE OUTCOME OF THE TRIAL, MAKING QUITE THAT THEY THINK JIMMY LAI IS GUILTY.

THEY ARE VERY SELECTIVE IN HOW THEY APPROACH IT .

>> SEBASTIAN LEI, I WONDER WHETHER YOU FEEL FREE UNDER THE RESTRICTIONS OF THIS LAW, KNOWING THAT YOUR FATHER IS HELD IN JAIL UNDER THE RESTRICTIONS OF THIS LAW, WHETHER YOU FEEL FREE DESCRIBING HIS CASE?

WHAT IS IT THAT HE IS ARRESTED FOR?

WHAT IS IT HE WAS DOING?

WE KNOW THAT HE SUPPORTED, FUNDED ASPECTS OF THE PRO- DEMOCRACY MOVEMENT.

>> YEAH, DAD HAD A VERY GOOD LINE THAT IT IS THE CHEAPEST WORK REGIME HAS ON ITS PEOPLE.

I SPEAK OUT ON MY FATHER'S BEHALF, I FEAR WHAT MIGHT HAPPEN TO HIM, BUT I WILL KEEP DOING IT UNTIL HE IS OUT, JUST AS HE KEPT SPEAKING OUT, CALLING FOR DEMOCRACY FOR THE LAST 30 YEARS, EVEN WHEN HIS LIFE WAS BEING THREATENED, EVEN WHEN HE KNEW THAT HE WAS GOING TO GET ARRESTED.

I WILL NOT STOP CALLING OUT FOR HIM TO BE FREE.

WITH MY FATHER'S CASE, AS KEENAN HAS ALLUDED TO, WE REALLY SEE THE HONG KONG GOVERNMENT WEAPON ARISING ITS LEGAL SYSTEM TO CRACK DOWN ON THE FREEDOMS OF HONG KONG IN A SENSE IT IS BIGGER DEMOCRACY WITH THE U.S.

ELECTIONS.

YOU REALLY SEE HONG KONG PUT IN ALL OF THESE VALUES THAT ARE FOUNDATIONAL FOR A DEMOCRACY ON TRIAL WITH THE TRIAL OF MY FATHER, THE FREE PRESS, RULE OF LAW, FREE SPEECH.

I HAVE GOT TO SPEAK OUT FOR HIM, NO MATTER WHAT.

>> SEBASTIAN HAS ALSO CALLED IS A SHOW TRIAL.

>> YES, AND HE IS RIGHT TO CALL THIS A SHOW TRIAL AND THE HONG KONG SECURITY CHIEF HAS BEEN BOASTING THE FACT THAT THE NATIONAL SECURITY LAW HAS A 100% CONVICTION RATE HERE THIS TRIAL IS ONLY GOING ONE WAY.

A TRIAL UNDER A LAW THAT SHOULD NOT EXIST.

JIMMY LEI IS ESSENTIALLY BEING CHARGED WITH CONSPIRACY TO COMMIT JOURNALISM.

>> CONSPIRACY TO COMMIT JOURNALISM?

YES.

WHAT HE IS CHARGED WITH IS ADVERTISING, RAISING FUNDS FOR A NEWSPAPER, PUBLISHING PUBLIC INTEREST NEWSPAPER, RAISING ISSUES OF CORRUPTION, HUMAN RIGHTS, CRACKDOWN ON PRO- DEMOCRACY PROTESTERS IN HONG KONG.

THAT IS JOURNALISM.

IT IS PUBLIC INTEREST JOURNALISM, WHICH ALL OF US AROUND THE WORLD ARE SO PROUD OF.

>> THIS IS WHERE I HAVE TO READ FROM HONG KONG WHERE THE GOVERNMENT PERSON SAYS, IN ALL DECISIONS THE HONG KONG DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE ARE BASED ON ADMISSIBLE EVIDENCE AND HONG KONG ENJOYS INDEPENDENT JUDICIAL POWER WITH COURTS AND JUDGES FREE FROM ANY INDEPENDENCE.

HIS INTERFERENCE RATHER.

CASES WILL NEVER BE HANDLED ANY DIFFERENTLY OWING TO THE PROFESSIONAL, POLITICAL BELIEFS OR BACKGROUNDS OF THE PERSON INVOLVED, SAYS A SPOKESMAN, TO SUGGEST OTHERWISE IS NONE OFFENSE-- UTTER NONSENSE OBJECTIVE TO FACTS.

MET AGAIN, THAT STATEMENT IS A BLACK IS WHITE STATEMENT.

THE NATIONAL SECURITY LAW CRIMINOLOGIST IS-- CRIMINALIZES JOURNALISM.

THE LOT ITSELF IS FAILING TO PROTECT FUNDAMENTAL RIGHTS, SIGIL AND DEMOCRACY.

FREEDOM OF EXPRESSION, PUBLIC INTEREST JOURNALISM, THOSE THINGS ARE NOT PROTECTED.

THE NATIONAL SECURITY LOT ITSELF CLAIMS THAT YOU ARE ENGAGING WITH FOREIGN FORCES AND COMMITTING AN OFFENSE.

WHEN YOU RAISE HUMAN RIGHTS AND PRO-DEMOCRACY CONCERNS WITH INTERNATIONAL ORGANIZATIONS, THIS IN ITSELF IS FUNDAMENTALLY PROUD PROCEEDING.

>> WHO IS JIMMY LAI?

WHO IS BY THE BUSINESSMAN, THE SUCCESSFUL TYCOON, DEMOCRACY ACTIVIST?

HE IS SOMEBODY WHO I THINK DESCRIBES HIMSELF AND RAN TO HONG KONG WHEN HE WAS ABOUT 12 YEARS OLD.

A SKATE THERE.

>> MY FATHER IS SKATE ON A BOAT FROM CHINA TO HONG KONG.

I THINK, NOT TO OVERSIMPLIFY IT, MY FATHER'S LIFE HAS ALWAYS BEEN FOR A TASTE OF THAT FREEDOM.

HE TOLD ME AS A KID, HE WAS PENNILESS.

HE HAD TO WORK IMMEDIATELY AT A FACTORY THE FIRST DAY.

HE TELLS ME, FOR HIM, IT WAS LIKE HEAVEN.

HE KNEW THAT IN HONG KONG, HE HAD A FEATURE.

HE HAD FREEDOM, THEREFORE, HE HAD A FUTURE.

IN CHINA IN THE 50s AND 60s.

HIS REAL TURNING POINT WAS A PROTEST, A POLITICAL AWAKENING FOR HIM.

HE FELT BETTER HOPE FOR CHINA TO HAVE DEMOCRACY AS WELL, THAT PEOPLE IN CHINA WOULD ENJOY THE SAME FREEDOMS AND FLOURISH LIKE IN HONG KONG.

WHEN THE MASSACRE HAPPENED, MY FATHER REALIZED THAT CHINA WAS FREEING ECONOMICALLY, WAS NOT GOING TO FREE SOCIALLY.

FOR 30 YEARS, THEY EXPECTED TRUTH OF POWER, DEMOCRACY, EVEN WHEN IT GOT REALLY HARD.

HE WAS RESTED AFTER THE NATIONAL SECURITY LAW.

I READ A LITTLE OF THAT LIFE-- DAD'S LIFE THAT PEOPLE OBVIOUSLY THAT IS HIS ADVOCACY BECAUSE OF HIS TREMENDOUS LOVE OF-- WELL, LIFE, BUT FOOD.

HE ACTUALLY HAS A FRENCH KNIGHTHOOD FOR HIS WRITING OF FRENCH FOOD.

OBVIOUSLY, THE FRENCH GIVING AGRICULTURAL WILL BOARD-- REWARD IS HIGH PRAISE.

>> CHINESE FOREIGN MINISTRY HAS A COMPLETELY DIFFERENT VIEW OF HIM.

JIMMY LAI IS ONE OF THE NOTORIOUS ANTI-ELEMENTS DESTABILIZING HONG KONG AND A MASTERMIND OF THE RIOTS RESPONSIBLE FOR NUMEROUS, EGREGIOUS ACTS.

HE MET WITH VICE PRESIDENT MIKE PENCE, HE HAS HAD, OBVIOUSLY IN HIS LIFE, MEETINGS WITH IMPORTANT-- INCLUDING IN COUNTRIES CONSIDERED ADVERSARIAL BY CHINA.

WHAT DO YOU EXPECT TO COME OUT OF THIS TRIAL?

>> THE LAW UNDER WHICH JIMMY LAI IS CURRENTLY BEING CHARGED, THE TRAJECTORY IS ONLY GOING ONE WAY.

THE STATISTICS ARE THERE.

100% OF PEOPLE PROSECUTED UNDER THE NATIONAL SECURITY LAW HAVE ALREADY BEEN CONVICTED.

NOT SURPRISING.

A LAW THAT AMNESTY INTERNATIONAL DESCRIBED AS HAVING BREATHTAKINGLY OFFENSES, WHICH APPLIES TO ANYONE ON THE PLANET.

THAT IS WHAT YOU ARE DEALING WITH.

I COME OFF THE TRIAL IN HONG KONG IS NOT GOING TO BE REAL COMPLIANT.

THAT IS WHY THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY MUST DO ALL IT CAN TO HOLD CHINA AND HONG KONG TO ACCOUNT AND ENSURE THAT THIS BRILLIANT, BRAVE MAN IS FREE IN THE WAY THAT HE SHOULD BE SO THAT SEBASTIAN, WHO HAS NOT SEEN HIS FATHER IN 2020, CAN SEE HIS FATHER AGAIN.

>> THERE ARE EVEN SOME LARGE COUNTRIES THAT DO CARE ABOUT THEIR REPUTATION, THEIR ABILITY TO DO BUSINESS IN THE WEST.

PRESSURE DOES WORK IN SOME OF THESE CASES.

DO YOU THINK IT WILL WORK IN CHINA'S CASE?

>> THE SHORT ANSWER, YES, IT CAN.

I HAVE WORKED IN MANY CASES WHERE I HAVE HAD CLIENTS DETAINED IN SAUDI ARABIA, RUSSIA, IRAN, AND YOU NEED TO WORK OUT WHAT IS THE LEVERAGE, WHICH OBVIOUSLY MAKES A DIFFERENCE.

CHIEF EXECUTIVE JOHN LEE AND HIS FIRST POLICY SPEECH WHEN HE TOOK OVER AS CHIEF EXECUTIVE OF HONG KONG, EXPRESSLY HIGHLIGHTED THE IMPORTANCE OF TRADE AND HONG KONG BEING AN INTERNATIONAL INVESTMENT CENTER.

THIS WEEK, WE HAVE SEEN A HUGE DELEGATION FROM CHINA IN SWITZERLAND, AND IRELAND, SENDING THE MESSAGE THAT CHINA AND HONG KONG ARE OPEN FOR BUSINESS, IT IS BUSINESS AS USUAL, THIS IS A SAFE PLACE TO DO TRADE.

THE BOTTOM LINE THAT THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY MUST GET ACROSS TO BEIJING AND HONG KONG'S LEADERS IS, AS LONG AS YOU HAVE JIMMY LAI BEHIND BARS, YOUR UNDERLYING YOUR OWN MESSAGE.

IF YOU WANT HONG KONG TO BE SEEN AS A SAFE LAY CITY BUSINESS YOU CAN'T LOCK UP A BUSINESSMAN FOR RUNNING A BUSINESS, RUNNING A NEWSPAPER, AND DOING HIS JOB.

>> FINALLY, TO YOU, SEBASTIAN, AS WE SAID IN THE BEGINNING, YOU HAVE NOT SEEN OR SPOKEN TO YOUR FATHER SINCE HIS ARREST 32 YEARS AGO.

WHAT WITH YOU SAY IF YOU WERE ABLE TO SEE HIM TOMORROW?

>> THAT I AM IMMENSELY PROUD OF HIM.

I KNOW HOW HARD THE DECISION HE MADE WAS.

OBVIOUSLY, WITH CHRISTMAS HAVING JUST HAPPENED, BUT BEFORE THAT, YOU REALIZE THAT BY CHOOSING TO STAND WITH THE PEOPLE OF HONG KONG, HE ALSO INADVERTENTLY CHOSE TO NOT BEND THAT TIME WITH US, WITH HIS FAMILY.

IT IS LIKE YOU SAID, HE WAS LET OUT.

HE REGRETS WHAT HE HAS DONE, HE SAYS, LYING THERE ON THE COURT PRISON FLOOR, I THINK TO MYSELF, WHAT I CHANGE ANYTHING IF I COULD?

THE ANSWER IS NOT A THING.

I ANCHOR THAT.

I THINK I AM INCREDIBLY PROUD OF WHAT MY FATHER HAS DONE, AND WHAT HE IS DOING.

I WHOLEHEARTEDLY SUPPORT HIM.

I WILL NOT STOP UNTIL HE IS OUT OF JAIL.

>> THANK YOU SO MUCH INDEED FOR JOINING US.

>>> HERE IS WHAT A HONG KONG GOVERNMENT SPOKESPERSON HAD TO SAY.

GOVERNMENT OF HONG KONG SPECIAL ADMINISTERED OF REGENT FIRMLY REJECTS AND STRONGLY DISAPPROVES OF THE MISLEADING AND UNFOUNDED STATEMENTS CONCERNING THE CASE OF JIMMY LAI, AND THE HONG KONG NATIONAL SECURITY LAW MENTIONED IN YOUR INQUIRY .

THE SPOKESMAN GOES ON TO SAY, ANY ATTEMPT TO BUY ANY ORGANIZATION OR INDIVIDUAL TO INTERFERE WITH JUDICIAL PROCEEDINGS IN HONG KONG BY MEANS OF MEDIA OR ANY OTHER MEANS, IN ORDER TO PROCURE A DEFENDANT'S INVASION OF THE JUSTICE PROCESS IS A REPREHENSIBLE ACT, UNDERMINING THE RULE OF LAW IN HONG KONG.

AND, AS GUARANTEED BY THE BASIC LAW AND THE HONG KONG BILL OF RIGHTS, ALL DEFENDANTS CHARGED WITH A CRIMINAL OFFENSE HAVE THE RIGHT TO AND WILL RECEIVE A FAIR TRIAL BY THE JUDICIARY.

>>> CHINA HAS BEEN A KEY TALKING POINT FOR UKRAINE AT THE WORLD ECONOMIC FORUM THIS WEEK WITH PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY SAYING, HE WOULD VERY MUCH LIKE CHINA TO BE INVOLVED IN HIS COUNTRY'S'S PLAN.

ALSO WATCHING WASHINGTON, WHERE $60 BILLION OF AID IS STILL HELD UP IN POLITICAL GRIDLOCK.

I SPOKE WITH ALL OF THIS ABOUT TO CHIEF OF THE "WALL STREET JOURNAL".

>> THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

CONGRATULATIONS ON THIS BOOK.

YOU ARE A VETERAN CORRESPONDENT , HAVE COVERED MANY WARS, BUT THIS WAR IN UKRAINE IS OBVIOUSLY VERY PERSONAL FOR YOU, WHERE ARE FROM, WHERE YOU WERE BORN, SPENT MANY YEARS GROWING UP.

I WANT TO READ A SECTION FROM THE BOOK, A QUOTE WHERE YOU WRITE, IT FELT WRONG TO WHERE THE STREETS OF MY OWN HOMETOWN, THE HELMET I HAD THOUGHT HUNDREDS OF TIMES IN IRAQ, AFGHANISTAN, AND OTHER WAR ZONES .

HOW SURREAL WAS IT TO COVER THIS WAR FOR YOU?

>> VERY SURREAL.

IN PART BECAUSE IT WAS WAR IN A COUNTRY YOU SAY, I GREW UP.

I HAD MY FORMATIVE EXPERIENCES.

IT IS ALSO-- AFTER MANY YEARS COVERING WARS IN OTHER COUNTRIES, JUST BEFORE THE INVASION OF UKRAINE, 2021, I WAS IN KABUL WATCHING HOW WITHIN HOURS, THE PRESIDENT OF THE TALIBAN WAS MARCHING PAST MY HOTEL.

I HAD THIS FEAR THAT THE SAME WOULD HAPPEN IN KYIV, THE FRAGILITY, I WOULD FALL.

MAYBE IF PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY HAD LISTENED TO THE ADVICE HE WAS GIVEN FROM WESTERN LEADERS TELLING HIM, LEAVE KYIV, SAID OF EXILE IN LONDON , SOMEWHERE ELSE, IF HE HAD LISTENED TO THAT ADVICE INSTEAD OF REMAINING STUBBORNLY IN HIS OFFICE SAYING, WE NEED WEAPONS TO DEFEND UKRAINE, UKRAINE ALSO COULD HAVE MET THE SAME FATE.

>> YOU MENTIONED PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY, THERE IS AN AMAZING QUOTE FROM HIM ABOUT PUTIN'S FAILURE TO SEIZE DEVELES IN THOSE HOURS.

HE OPENED HIS MOUTH LIKE A PYTHON AND THOUGHT WE WERE JUST ANOTHER BUNNY TO ME BUT WE ARE NOT A BUNNY, AND IT TURNS OUT HE CANNOT SWALLOW WAS AND IS ACTUALLY AT RISK OF GETTING TORN APART HIMSELF.

TED GOES BACK TO THE EARLY DAYS OF THE WORLD WHERE YOU TOO THOUGHT INITIALLY KYIV WOULD FALL AND YOU REALIZE THIS IS A DIFFERENT TYPE OF LEADERSHIP, DIFFERENT TYPE OF COUNTRY.

>> I THINK THE MOMENT OF REALIZATION WAS ON DAY TWO OF THE WAR, AFTER THE RUSSIANS WERE PREVENTED FROM LANDING PLANES OUTSIDE OF KYIV, ZELINSKI APPEARED OUTSIDE OF HIS OFFICE LATE AT NIGHT AND RECORDED A VIDEO SAYING, WE ARE HERE, WE ARE NOT GOING ANYWHERE.

THAT MESSAGE, WHICH CAME AT THE TIME WHERE RUSSIA WAS SPREADING RUMORS HE WILL LEAVE, HE IS IN POLAND, REALLY RALLIED UKRAINIANS AND IT SHOWED, HE IS THERE, WE SHOULD ALSO STAY IN OUR JOBS AND DO OUR THINGS.

LEADING BY EXAMPLE WAS A VERY IMPORTANT MOMENT.

I REMEMBER DRIVING IN KYIV THE NEXT MORNING, SEEING THIS GIANT LINE OF PEOPLE OUTSIDE OF A HORSE RACING TRACK.

WE STOPPED TO SEE WHO THEY WERE .

IT WAS PEOPLE COMING OUT OF THEIR HOMES TO GET WEAPONS AND GO TO THE FRONT LINES TO DEFEND THEIR CINDY-- CITY.

ZELINSKI'S ROLE, IMPORTANT IN THE FIRST WEEKS AND MONTHS, HE WENT OVER THE HEADS OF POLITICIANS, OF GOVERNMENTS IN THE WEST AND USED HIS TALENTS TO SPEAK DIRECTLY TO THE PEOPLE, HE ADDRESSED PEOPLE AT ROCK CONCERTS, UNIVERSITY COMMITMENTS, ALL OF THIS MORAL SUPPORT FOR UKRAINE, MORAL CONSIDERATIONS ACTUALLY SWAYED POLITICIANS TO DO THINGS THEY WOULD NOT NECESSARILY WANT TO DO.

>> REMEMBER THE FAMOUS LINE HE REALLY DID NOT UTTER, IT TURNED OUT, IT WAS IN THE EARLY DAYS OF THE WAR WITH THE WESTERN LEADER, WHERE HE WAS APPARENTLY TOLD, YOU SHOULD LEAVE, WE WILL HELP YOU.

I DON'T NEED A RIDE, I NEED AMMO.

HE MAY NOT HAVE SAID THAT EXACT LINE, BUT THOSE ARE THE ACTIONS HE PORTRAYED TO THE PEOPLE.

>> THERE WAS NO AMMO FORTHCOMING IN THE BEGINNING.

UKRAINE BASICALLY REPELLED THE INITIAL RUSSIAN ONSLAUGHT-- WITH WHAT THEY HAD.

THE IDEA WAS, WHY DO WE WANT TO GIVE RUSSIA OUR AMMO?

>> IF WE GO BACK TO AFGHANISTAN, THERE WAS AN EXAMPLE THAT JUST A MONTH EARLIER, ALL OF THIS WEAPONRY FELL TO THE TALIBAN.

THEY MET IN REALITY, IT WAS PROBABLY THE GAVE PUTIN THE GREEN LIGHT THING, NOTHING WILL STOP ME FROM GOING INTO UKRAINE.

I WANT TO TALK ABOUT PRESENT DAY REALITY AND LINK TO THE EARLY DAYS OF THE WAR, WHEN IT WAS NOT NECESSARILY THE UNITED STATES, IT WAS THE UK.

BORIS JOHNSON WAS THE FIRST LEADERSPOKE WITH, ONE OF THE FIRST COUNTRIES THAT OFFERED A SIGNIFICANT AMOUNT OF MILITARY AID AND PUBLIC SUPPORT.

NOW, WE SEE RISHI SUNAK IN UKRAINE MEETING WITH ZELINSKYY, ANNOUNCING MORE THAN $3 BILLION IN MILITARY ASSISTANCE TO ME WHEN THE COUNTRY NEEDS IT MOST.

TALK ABOUT THE ROLE THAT THE UK HAS LAID, REALLY PUNCHING ABOVE ITS WEIGHT IN THIS WAR.

>> EVEN BEFORE THE WAR.

IF YOU REMEMBER, I SPEAK ABOUT IT IN THE BOOK, THE U.S.

ANNOUNCED WEAPONS APPLY OF JAVELINS, THE MISSILES.

I THINK ABOUT 90 OF THEM WERE SUPPLIED, WHICH IS A REAL DROP IN THE OCEAN.

ACCORDING TO UKRAINIAN OFFICIALS, WHERE IS BORIS JOHNSON CONVINCED HIS OWN MILITARY COMMANDER 2000 MISSILES , WHICH REALLY MADE A DIFFERENCE IN STOPPING WHAT THE RUSSIANS HAD SINCE ACROSS THE BORDER.

THROUGHOUT THIS CONFLICT, UK DOES NOT HAVE A HUGE MILITARY, BUT IT IS PIONEERING UNIQUE CAPABILITIES.

THEY WERE THE FIRST TO GIVE UKRAINE CRUISE MISSILES, VERY SUCCESSFULLY IN THE LAST SEVERAL MONTHS TO ATTACK TARGETS IN CRIMEA.

SOME OF THE U.S.

STILL HAVE GIVEN TO UKRAINIANS, FOR EXAMPLE.

SOME COMPARABLE AMERICAN WEAPONS ARE STILL BEING ROUTED TO UKRAINE.

>> FRUSTRATING, BECAUSE THE WEAPONS UKRAINE DID ASK FOR, INITIALLY THEY WOULD GET, BUT IT WOULD BE MUCH LATER.

THE ARGUMENT WAS, IF WE HAD GOTTEN IT TO, IMAGINE WHAT WE WOULD HAVE BEEN ABLE TO ACHIEVE HERE NOW YOU HAVE SOME $50 MILLION IN U.S. ASSISTANCE HANGING IN THE BALANCE.

YOU SEE A CHANGE IN EVEN PRESIDENT BIDEN, WE WILL SUPPORT UKRAINE FOR AS LONG AS IT TAKES TO WE WILL SUPPORT AS LONG AS WE CAN, ADDRESSING THE REALITY OF THE SITUATION WHERE YOU ARE SEEING OF TWO MAJOR U.S. PARTIES QUESTIONING THE ROLE OF CONTINUING TO SOME WORDS UKRAINE.

HOW IS THAT AFFECTING LAWMAKERS IN UKRAINE AND THEIR CONCERN ABOUT WHAT THIS MEANS FOR THEIR WAR?

>> I WOULD SAY PARTS OF MODERN ASIA.

>> NOT ALL REPUBLICANS, BUT YES, ENOUGH TO CRIPPLE PEERS >> SO FAR, WE SEE THAT THE REQUEST FOR THE AID HAS BEEN STUCK IN CONGRESS FOR A MONTH AND ALREADY HAS A FIX ON THE BATTLEFIELD.

IF UKRAINE AND RUSSIA HAD A PARODY MORE OR LESS IN THE NUMBER OF SHELLS THEY COULD FIRE AT EACH OTHER SIX MONTHS AGO, NOW, UKRAINE IS MAYBE 5-1 DISADVANTAGE.

THE COST OF THESE DELAYS REALLY MEASURE IN LIVES OF UKRAINIAN SOLDIERS AND UKRAINIAN CIVILIANS.

SOME PEOPLE IN THIS COUNTRY AND IN EUROPE SAY, YOU KNOW, IT IS TOUGH FUNDING UKRAINE'S MILITARY, IT WILL FORCE YOU TO NEGOTIATE.

THERE IS NO MAGICAL SOLUTION BECAUSE RUSSIA IS NOT GOING TO NEGOTIATE.

THE CUT OFF LEASE TO A SETTLEMENT, IT WOULD JUST LEAD TO RUSSIAN ADVANCES.

>> THAT LEADS TO HOW THIS ALL IN .

YOU FOCUS ON WHEN YOU'RE IN THIS, BECAUSE IT IS DIFFICULT TO WRITE ABOUT A WAR THAT IS STILL ONGOING.

YOU TALK ABOUT THE PIVOTAL FIRST MONTHS.

YOU NOW SEE THINGS CHANGING A LITTLE, NOT ONLY CONCERNING U.S. CONFERENCE-- CONGRESS, BUT THE EU AND PROCUREMENT OF WEAPONS, HOW LONG THAT WILL TAKE.

RUSSIA SEEMS TO HAVE NO PROBLEM GOING TO IRAN, EVEN NORTH KOREA.

WE WILL SEE WHAT ROLE, IF ANY, CHINA TAKES IN ALL OF THIS.

HOW DOES THIS END?

WHAT IS THE BIGGEST CHALLENGE PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY FACE IS NOW IN RUNNING A DEMOCRATIC COUNTRY BY SAYING PUBLICLY, WE WON'T NEGOTIATE, ALSO KNOWING, THIS WAR CAN'T GO ON FOREVER?

IT IS EASY TO SAY FOR HIM NOW, WE WANT TO NEGOTIATE, BECAUSE THERE IS NOTHING ON THE RUSSIAN SIDE THAT SUGGESTS NEGOTIATIONS ARE POSSIBLE.

IF WE LOOK AT THE SOLUTION FROM THE LEGAL STANDPOINT, RUSSIA HAS REFERENDUMS THAT COULD BE LEADING TO NEXT FOREIGN REGIONS , NEITHER OF WHICH IT ACTUALLY CONTROLS FULLY.

AS FAR AS RUSSIAN LAW IS CONCERNED, ALL OF THE FIGHTING IS ACTUALLY ON THE RUSSIAN TERRITORY.

THE CONFLICT ANYWHERE NEAR THE LINES WILL BE POLITICALLY CATASTROPHIC FOR PRESIDENT PUTIN, MUCH SAFER FOR HIM TO KEEP GOING AND GOING, ESPECIALLY NOW THAT HE HAS REBUILT THE MILITARY INDUSTRY AND THERE IS HOPE THAT FUNDING WILL DRY UP THIS YEAR AND THEN, MAYBE THE FOLLOWING ADMINISTRATION.

IN THE U.S., AFTER NOVEMBER, MUCH FRIENDLIER.

>> HE IS ACTING ON DONALD TRUMP WINNING?

>> THAT IS WHAT RUSSIAN OFFICIALS ARE SAYING, FOR SURE.

>> HOW BIG OF A HINDRANCE FOR UKRAINE HAVE THE WAR IN THE MIDDLE EAST BEEN, IN TERMS OF NOT ONLY ATTENTION, RECOGNITION, RESOURCES, BUT ALSO JUST DIVERGING EVERYONE'S EYES?

>> I THINK THE ATTENTION ISN'T SOMETHING NECESSARILY UKRAINE NEEDS.

HOW MANY TIMES SECRETARY BLINKEN GOES TO KYIV OVER THE COURSE OF THE WAR, BUT FUNDING IS CERTAINLY A HUGE ISSUE.

UKRAINIANS HOPE THAT WE ARE PUTTING IN THE SAME QUEST TO SPEED UP APPROVAL IN CONGRESS, THAT HAVE NOT HAPPENED.

THE OTHER PROBLEM IS THE POLARIZATION AROUND THE WORLD AND THE PERCEPTION OF MANY COUNTRIES IN THE GLOBAL SOUTH OF THE U.S. ENGAGES THE WEST IN DOUBLE STANDARDS HAS REALLY UNDERMINED SUPPORT FOR UKRAINE.

>> THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

>>> TURNING TO THE CLIMATE CRISIS.

DATA SCIENTIST HANNAH RITCHIE SAYS, WE NEED TO SWITCH OUR FOCUS FROM DOOM AND GLOOM TO SOLUTIONS, AS SHE ARGUES IN HER NEW BOOK ME NOT THE END OF THE WORLD.

>> THANKS FOR JOINING US.

YOUR BOOK IS TITLED, "NOT THE END OF THE WORLD, HOW WE CAN BE THE FIRST GENERATION TO REBUILD A SUSTAINABLE PLANET."

TELL ME ABOUT WHAT MOTIVATED THIS OPTIMISM IN YOUR BOOK.

>> IT IS FRAMED AS NOT THE END OF THE WORLD, NOT TO BE PRONOUNCED AS, OH, IT IS NOT THE END OF THE WORLD, BUT DEFINITIVE, NO, IT IS NOT THE END OF THE WORLD BECAUSE WE CAN TACKLE THESE PROBLEMS.

THE WAY I TRIED TO FRAME IT IS, WE ARE IN A BAD PLACE ON A BAD TRAJECTORY.

I CAN SEE FROM LOOKING AT THE DATA, THERE IS A POSSIBILITY TO BEGIN A MUCH BETTER TRAJECTORY.

I THINK THERE ARE SOLUTIONS THERE, SOME PROBLEMS WE HAVE SOLVED.

I THINK ON MANY ENVIRONMENTAL ISSUES, WE HAVE GOTTEN TO THE STAGE WHERE WE FEEL LIKE, THERE'S NOTHING WE CAN DO AND WE FEEL HELPLESS TO DO ANYTHING AND I'M TRYING TO SHAKE ACTION AND GET US GOING PEERS >> YOUR DAY JOB IS AT A PLACE CALLED, OUR WORLD AND DATA.

PEOPLE AREN'T FAMILIAR WITH THAT, FOR YEARS NOW, HAS HAD SOME OF THE BEST VISUALIZATION OF.

FOR ARTISTS-- VISUAL ARTIST AUDIENCE THAT DOES NOT KNOW, CAN YOU EXPLAIN?

>> WE ARE ONLINE.

WE FRAME AS DATA RESEARCH TO UNDERSTAND THE WORLD'S LARGEST PROBLEMS.

BETWEEN ACADEMIA AND RESEARCH, THE GENERAL PUBLIC, POLICYMAKERS, JOURNALISTS, AND WE TRY TO MAKE THIS DATA UNDERSTANDABLE TO A GENERAL AUDIENCE.

WE DO THAT ACROSS ENVIRONMENTAL WITH CLIMATE TOPICS, ALSO HEALTH, WAR, WHAT WE FRAME AS THE WORLD'S LARGEST PROBLEMS.

WE TRY TO ZOOM OUT AND LOOK AT THE LONG-TERM TRENDS, RATHER THAN SINGLE HEADLINES.

>> WHAT IS IT ABOUT YOUR WORK WITH KIND OF THE RAW DATA THAT HELPS YOU BE MORE OPTIMISTIC, BECAUSE ESPECIALLY SAY IN THE CONTEXT OF CLIMATE, WHAT MOST PEOPLE HERE ARE NUMBERS THAT ARE ALARMING, AND AT TIMES, MAKE THEM FEEL HOPELESS.

>> SPECIFICALLY ON CLIMATE.

THE TRAJECTORY WE ARE ON NOW IS A VERY SCARY ONE.

WE ARE HEADING BETWEEN 2 1/2 TO THREE DEGREES, WHICH WOULD BE REAL SEVERE AND CATASTROPHIC.

WHAT MAKES ME A BIT MORE OPTIMISTIC, ESPECIALLY WHEN WE LOOK AT ENERGY TRENDS, WE ARE IN A VERY DIFFERENT POSITION NOW THAN EVEN A DECADE AGO ON THESE TOP ISSUES.

A BIG REASON FOR THAT HAS BEEN A RAPID DECLINE IN THE COST OF LOW CARBON TECHNOLOGIES.

IF WE ARE LOOKING AT CLIMATE ACTION A DECADE AGO, ARE ALTERNATIVES TO FOSSIL FUELS WERE WAY MORE EXPENSIVE THAN FOSSIL FUELS.

IT WAS REALLY HARD TO SEE HOW THE WORLD WOULD ADOPT THEM.

WHAT WE HAVE SEEN OVER THE LAST DECADE IS MUCH IT COST OF THESE TECHNOLOGIES.

NO COMPETITOR WHERE WE SEE CHEAPER FOSSIL FUELS, A LOT MORE OPTIMISM THAT RICH COUNTRIES CAN ADOPT THESE, BUT MIDDLE INCOME AND LOW INCOME COUNTRIES CAN RAISE THE STANDARD OF LIVING IN A LOW CARBON WAY.

>> THERE IS THE TECHNOLOGY ASPECT OF IT.

AS YOU POINT OUT, WE HAVE ENGINEERED SOME SOLUTIONS, THEN, THERE SEEMS TO BE A POLITICAL DIMENSION TO IT AS WELL.

DO YOU THINK THAT EVEN IF HUMANITY IS PRESENTED WITH THESE LOW CARBON ALTERNATIVES, THAT WE ARE, NOT JUST CAPABLE, BUT WILLING TO MAKE THE SACRIFICES NECESSARY TO HAVE THIS ENERGY TRANSITIONAL CURVE?

>> I DON'T THINK IT IS GOING TO BE EASY.

I THINK IT WILL BE VERY DIFFICULT.

THE POLITICAL WORLD ISSUE IS A BIG ONE.

WE CONTEST FREEDOM AS A SACRIFICE.

IN THE PAST ME WE FRAME THIS AS A SACRIFICE, WHICH IS WHY I THINK CLIMATE ACTION HAS BEEN SLOW.

WITH THESE TECHNOLOGIES, THERE IS AN OPPORTUNITY.

YOU ACTUALLY SEE THAT WHERE NOT ENOUGH PEOPLE ARE DEPLOYING THESE TECHNOLOGIES, OR CLAIMING IT.

THEY ARE ALSO DOING IT FOR ECONOMIC OPPORTUNITIES, OR EMPLOYMENT OPPORTUNITIES, OR ENERGY SECURITY.

I THINK WE NEED TO MOVE AWAY FROM THIS FREEDOM AS A MODEL AND SACRIFICE TO CLIENT TACKLE CLIMATE CHANGE.

EVEN IF THE POLITICAL WILL IS NOT THERE, THERE ARE OTHER REASONS WHY WE MIGHT SWITCH TO THESE TECHNOLOGIES.

>> WHEN WE THINK OF TIME IT, A LOT OF THE CONVERSATION, AT LEAST IN THE PRESS, CRESCENDOS AT THESE ANNUAL MEETINGS, THE COP FOLKS, AND ALL OF A SUDDEN, THE PARIS AGREEMENT, WE ARE SLEEPING PAST TO THIS DEGREE CELSIUS, AND THE PHRASE, TIPPING POINT, ALWAYS COMES UP AND YOU KIND OF TAKE ISSUE WITH THAT NOTION OF TIPPING POINT, EXPLAIN.

>> I DON'T TAKE NOTION, BUT THE FACT THAT THERE ARE TIPPING POINT, THERE ARE TIPPING POINT IN THE CLIMATE SYSTEM.

THESE ARE VERY DIFFERENT ONES.

THERE IS NO ONE SINGLE TIPPING POINT.

WE DON'T KNOW EXACTLY WHERE THEY ARE.

THERE ARE A RANGE OF DIFFERENT TALKING POINTS.

YOU CAN SEE REVERSIBLE IMPACTS WE CAN'T RETRACT BACK FROM.

WHERE I TAKE ISSUE IS THE TARGET BEING MENTIONED AS A TIPPING POINT.

THAT IS NOT NECESSARILY A TIPPING POINT.

I THINK IT IS REALLY IMPORTANT IN COMMUNICATION BECAUSE WHEN PEOPLE THINK ABOUT CLIMATE CHANGE, WE ARE GETTING VERY CLOSE TO NUMBER 1.5 DEGREES.

PERSONALLY, I AM QUITE PESSIMISTIC THAT WE REACH 1.5 DEGREES.

IF YOU FRAME IT AS A TAPPING POINT, WE LOSE ANY SENSE OF URGENCY.

WHAT IS THE POINT IN TAKING ACTION?

WE EITHER NEED TO FRAME IT AS 1.5 DEGREES SHOULD BE OUR TARGET, BUT WE NEED 1.6, 1.7, 1.8.

WE PREVENT MANY OF THESE POINTS , BUT WE ACTUALLY DON'T KNOW WHERE THEY ARE IN THE SYSTEM.

MAKE THE IN-DEPTH SUSTAINABILITY -- DO YOU END UP RAMMING SUSTAINABILITY AS A TIPPING POINT?

>> NORMALLY I THINK OF IT AS HAVING A LOW ENVIRONMENTAL IMPACT TO PROTECT FUTURE GENERATIONS AND OTHER SPECIES.

I THINK WHAT IS ALSO REALLY IMPORTANT WE NEED TO KEEP IN MIND IS, PROVIDING A GOOD LIFE FOR EVERYONE ALIVE TODAY.

THERE IS THIS GOAL UNDER AN ENVIRONMENTAL SUSTAINABILITY END GOAL.

THE WAY I FRAME IT, WE NEVER REALLY ACHIEVE SUSTAINABILITY UNLESS WE ACHIEVE BOTH HALVES AT THE SAME TIME.

IN THE PAST, THESE TWO WERE STRONGLY IN CONFLICT.

IF YOU LOOK OVER THE LAST TWO CENTURIES, WE MADE AMAZING PROGRESS ON THE HUMAN DIMENSION, BUT IT HAS CAME AT THE COST OF THE ENVIRONMENT.

WE BURN FOSSIL FUELS, NOW DRIVING CLIMATE CHANGE.

WHERE I SEE THE OPPORTUNITY WE HAVE, I THINK THESE TWO GOALS ARE NO LONGER INCOMPATIBLE.

I THINK WE CAN PROVIDE A GOOD LIFE FOR EIGHT, NINE, 10 BILLION PEOPLE, REDUCING OUR ENVIRONMENTAL IMPACT AT THE SAME TIME.

I THINK THAT IS THE OPPORTUNITY THAT WE HAVE.

>> HOW DO YOU BALANCE I GUESS THE OPTIMISM THAT YOU ARE LAYING OUT IN PARTS OF THIS BOOK WITH A SENSE OF URGENCY THAT IS ALSO NECESSARY?

RIGHT NOW, WE HAVE GOT NASA CONFIRMING THAT 2023 WAS THE HOTTEST YEAR ON RECORD.

THERE ARE SCIENTISTS SAYING, LISTEN, A DECADE FROM NOW, WE WILL LOOK BACK AT HIS AS A RELATIVELY COOL YEAR.

HOW ARE YOU GOING TO HELP PEOPLE KEEP BOTH OF THOSE IDEAS IN THEIR BRAIN THAT WE DO HAVE POTENTIAL AND ALL HOPE IS NOT LOST, BUT THAT WE DO NEED TO ASK QUICKLY?

>> ISAAC IT IS VERY DIFFICULT.

THERE IS ALWAYS THE RISK THAT PEOPLE BECOME COMPLACENT.

WE DO NEED TO CONVEY THE CURRENT TRAJECTORY WE ARE ON IS ON EXCEPT DOUBLE, AND A REALLY SERIOUS, DANGEROUS ONE.

WE ALSO NEED TO GIVE PEOPLE THE SENSE OF AGENCY THAT WE CAN TACKLE THIS AND WE DON'T NEED TO BE ON THIS PARTICULAR TRAJECTORY.

OFTEN, WHEN PEOPLE ARE HIT WITH HEADLINE, AFTER HEADLINE, AFTER HEADLINE, THEY CAN FALL INTO THIS STATE WHERE YOU ARE TELLING THEM ABOUT THE PROBLEM, BUT NO NOTION OF SOLUTIONS, OR A WAY WE CAN GET OUT OF THIS YEAR THEY OFTEN FEEL HELPLESS.

THAT WILL NOT HELP US DRIVE FORWARD.

WE NEED TO CONVEY THE SERIOUSNESS AND URGENCY BY WHICH WE NEED TO ACT.

WE ALSO NEED TO CONVEY A SENSE OF THERE ARE ACTUALLY SOLUTIONS OUT THERE AND THEY ARE BEING IMPLEMENTED AND WE CAN DRIVE THAT PASTOR.

>> YOU WRITE ABOUT YOUR BROTHER AS AN EXAMPLE OF WHAT A SINGLE HUMAN BEING CAN DO.

WHAT ARE THE STEPS THAT HE TOOK?

I FRAME -- >> I FRAME MY BROTHER IN THE BOOK AS HE IS NOT AN ENVIRONMENTALIST, BUT NEVER REALLY BEING THAT INTERESTED IN CLIMATE CHANGE, BUT HE, FOR EXAMPLE, HE GOT TESLA, HE GOT AN INTO ELECTRIC CAR, AGAIN, NOT FOR THE ENVIRONMENT, HE JUST GOT AN ELECTRIC CAR BECAUSE IT MADE SENSE.

IT WAS A NICE CAR TO DRIVE.

IT WORKED REALLY WELL FOR CHARGING.

HIS BILLS ARE LOWER.

THIS COMES BACK TO THE OPPORTUNITY ANGLE.

WE NEED TO ALSO CONVEY THE OTHER BENEFITS OF THESE SOLUTIONS.

IF WE ARE GOING TO RELY ON EVERYONE BEING MORE TO TACKLE CLIMATE CHANGE, I DON'T THINK WE WILL GET THERE.

YES, WE NEED TO MAKE PEOPLE AWARE OF CLIMATE CHANGE, BUT WE ALSO NEED TO HIGHLIGHT THE OTHER COOL BENEFITS OF THE SOLUTIONS SO THAT EVERYONE CAN GET ON BOARD.

>> YOU WRITE IN THE BOOK THAT CAN BE THE FIRST GENERATION THAT CREATES ENERGY WITHOUT BURNING SOME.

AT THE SAME TIME, THE SPACE WE ARE IN TODAY, ACCORDING TO A 2023 REPORT BY THE ENERGY IN THE TOOTH SAYS, I THINK WE ARE AT 82% OF OUR FUEL SUPPLY STILL IS RELIANT ON FOSSIL FUELS.

HOW DO WE GET FROM THE 80% THAT WE ARE AT, TO HOPEFULLY ZERO IN A GENERATION?

>> WE NEED A MASSIVE BUILDUP OF THE ALTERNATIVES TO FOSSIL FUELS .

I THINK THE ECONOMICS OF THESE ALTERNATIVES ARE NOT REALLY ADVANTAGEOUS.

SOLAR, WIND, NUCLEAR, WE NEED THE WHOLE LOT AND WE NEED THEM TO WORK TOGETHER TO CREATE A PORTFOLIO THAT CAN REPLACE FOSSIL FUELS.

WHAT IS IMPORTANT TO HIGHLIGHT ABOUT THE CURRENT ENERGY SYSTEM WE HAVE, IS BECAUSE WE ARE BURNING FOSSIL FUELS, IT IS ACTUALLY VERY INEFFICIENT ENERGY SYSTEM.

WHEN YOU BURN FOSSIL FUELS, MOST OF THAT ENERGY ACTUALLY GOES TO WASTE.

A SMALL FRACTION ACTUALLY GOES TO WHAT WE CALL ENERGY SERVICES, MOVING YOU FROM A TO B, CARRYING YOUR LAPTOP OR TB.

THAT IS AN OPPORTUNITY.

IT CAN BE MOVED TO A DECOLONIZE ENERGY SYSTEM, WOULD ACTUALLY NEED LESS ENERGY.

THAT BIG STACK OF FOSSIL FUELS WE SEE CAN SEEM REALLY, REALLY DAUNTING.

ONCE WE START TO ELECTRIFY MANY OF OUR TRANSPORT AND HEATING SYSTEM, A LOT OF THOSE WILL DISAPPEAR.

WE SHOULD NOT UNDERESTIMATE HOW BIG OF A CHALLENGE IT IS, IT IS A REALLY BIG CHALLENGE.

THERE ARE VARIOUS PARTS OF THAT PUZZLE THAT SHOULD MAKE US A BIT MORE OPTIMISTIC.

>> WHAT DO YOU DO TO TACKLE KIND OF STRUCTURAL INEFFICIENCIES AND INFRASTRUCTURE?

REALLY LOOKING AT UPENDING THE EXISTING SYSTEMS OF HOW UTILITY SYSTEMS WORK, HOW GAS INFRASTRUCTURE WORKS.

HOW DO WE TACKLE THOSE THINGS KIND OF SIMULTANEOUSLY?

>> ENTERTAINMENT IS A BIG ONE.

IN SOME SENSE, A BIG ONE IN THE U.S. OR UK, FOR EXAMPLE, WHERE IF WE MOVED AWAY, WE BECOME VERY COMPLACENT OF BUILDING INFRASTRUCTURE.

FOR MANY COUNTRIES, THEY ARE DOING MUCH BETTER.

CHINA, FOR EXAMPLE, THE BUILDING, THE ENERGY SYSTEMS, THE BUILDING UPGRADES, MASSIVE AMOUNTS OF SOLAR AND WIND.

I THINK IN SOME SENSE, THE U.S. AND UK REALLY NEED TO GET ON BOARD WITH GETTING BACK INTO THIS FEELING OF ACTUALLY BUILDING STUFF.

WHAT IS IMPORTANT TO NOTE, I THINK WE WILL PROBABLY HAVE WHAT WE CALL A MESSY METAL TRANSITION, WHERE IT IS ACTUALLY MUCH EASIER IF YOU GO REALLY PETROL, OR FULLY ELECTRIC .

I THINK THERE WILL BE THIS MESSY MID-TRANSITION WHERE YOU GET BOTH AT THE SAME TIME.

SOME PEOPLE WILL HAVE GASOLINE CARS, AND SOME PEOPLE WILL HAVE ELECTRIC CARS.

I THINK IT WILL BE A BIG CHALLENGE.

>> YOU ALSO WRITE ABOUT FOOD, AND THE CHOICES WE MAKE WITH WHAT WE EAT HAVING A FAIRLY CONSEQUENTIAL IMPACT ON GLOBAL CLIMATE.

BREAK THAT DOWN FOR US.

>> WHEN PEOPLE THINK OF CLIMATE CHANGE, THEY AUTOMATICALLY THINK OF ENERGY.

THAT IS THREE QUARTERS OF OUR EMISSIONS.

THE FINAL QUARTER COMES FROM FOOD SYSTEMS.

FOOD AND AGRICULTURE IS NOT JUST RELEVANT FOR CLIMATE, IT IS KIND OF THE LEADING DRIVER OF OTHER ENVIRONMENTAL PROBLEMS.

WATER USE, BEFORE STATION, BIODIVERSITY LAWS, FOOD IS ESSENTIAL TO MANY OF THESE PROBLEMS.

AROUND A QUARTER OF OUR GREENHOUSE GAS EMISSIONS, FROM FOOD SYSTEMS.

IF YOU LOOK AT A QUARTER OF THE CENTURY, WE DECOLONIZE OUR ENERGY SYSTEMS.

THE AMOUNT OF EMISSIONS FROM FOOD WOULD PROBABLY TAKE US PAST WHAT WE CALL THE CARBON BUDGET, THE AMOUNT OF CARBON WE CAN ADMIT, BETWEEN 1.5 OR TWO DEGREES.

IS ACTUALLY PAST MOST OF THOSE TARGETS.

WE REALLY NEED TO ADDRESS FOOD.

>> IN YOUR SECTION ABOUT FOOD, YOU SAY, IT IS NOT JUST ABOUT EATING LOCAL.

EXPLAINED THAT.

>> I THINK WHEN YOU ASK PEOPLE, WHAT IS THE BEST WAY TO REDUCE THE CARBON FOOTPRINT OF FOOD, THEY ALL DID SAY, EACH LOCAL --EAT.

THAT IS OFTEN THE ADVICE WE ARE GIVEN.

WHEN WE LOOK AT THE DATE OF CARBON FOOTPRINTS OF DIFFERENT FOODS, ACTUALLY, THE TRANSPORT COMPONENT, WHAT WE CALL FOOD MILES, GLOBALLY, AROUND 5% OF FOOD SYSTEM EMISSIONS.

MOST EMISSIONS, FROM MISSIONS ON THE FARM, THINGS LIKE FERTILIZERS, MANURE, COWS BURPING, EMITTING WHEN THEY BURP.

MOST OF THOSE COME FROM THAT, NOT TRANSPORT.

WHEN COMPARING THE CARBON FOOTPRINT OF FOODS, WHAT YOU EAT MATTERS MUCH MORE THAN HOW FAR IT HAS TRAVELED TO REACH YOU.

IT IS NOT NECESSARILY THE CASE THAT YOUR LOCAL FOOD IS AUTOMATIC FOR THE CLIMATE THAN FOOD SHIPPED IN FROM ANOTHER COUNTRY.

>> YOU WRITE WRITE A BIT ABOUT PLASTICS AS WELL.

YOU DON'T TAKE ISSUE WITH THE WAY THE MIRACLE OF THE PLASTIC IS.

IT IS REALLY ABOUT, WHAT WE DO WITH IT AFTER WE HAVE USED IT?

>> THE PLASTICS, TWO DINESH DIMENSIONS TO IT.

ONE CONCERN IS MICRO PLASTICS AND THE POTENTIAL HEALTH IMPACTS ON HUMANS.

THE ACTUAL HEALTH IMPACTS ARE VERY INCONCLUSIVE AT THE MOMENT.

IF WE WANT TO END PLASTICS, I DON'T KNOW HOW TO DO THAT.

A MORE INTRACTABLE PROBLEM IS TACKLING THE WASTE AT THE END OF THE INDUSTRY.

WE ARE PLASTIC FLOWING INTO RIVERS AND THE OCEAN.

THAT IS A VERY PRACTICAL PROBLEM.

IT IS NOT NECESSARILY ABOUT THE AMOUNT OF PLASTIC WE ARE USING, IT IS HOW WE DISPOSE OF IT.

EVEN IF YOU ARE PUTTING IT IN A LANDFILL, RECYCLING, REGENERATING, IT IS A LOW RISK OF GOING INTO THE RIVERS AND OCEAN.

WE HAVE MOST PLASTIC FLOWING TENDS TO BE IN LOWER INCOME COUNTRIES, WHERE PLASTIC USE HAS INCREASED A LOT, BUT NOT THE WASTE MANAGEMENT INFRASTRUCTURE TO MANAGE IT AT THE END OF THE CHAIN.

THAT MEANS, THE BASIC SOLUTION TO THIS, NOT FLASHY OR EXCITING, JUST INVESTING IN PROPER WASTE MANAGEMENT.

>> YOU ARE CAREFUL NOT TO PRESCRIBE SPECIFIC THINGS FOR READERS OF THE BOOK.

YOU KIND OF WORRY THAT MAYBE IT TURNS THEM OFF OR COMES OFF PREACHY?

>> I THINK IN THE BOOK, I WANT TO GIVE GOOD INFORMATION.

I LAY OUT ALL THE DATA AND EXAMPLES OF WHAT SOMEONE CAN DO.

I AM VERY SPECIFIC NOT TO PRESCRIBE WILL, YOU HAVE TO DO THIS OR DO THIS.

I DON'T THINK THEY RESPOND VERY WELL TO THAT.

AN EXAMPLE OF MY BROTHER, IF I TOLD HIM, YOU HAVE TO GET AN ELECTRIC CAR TO DO THIS FOR THE CLIMATE AND YOU ARE REALLY BAD IF YOU DON'T.

I DON'T THINK HE WOULD GET THE ELECTRIC CAR.

I THINK IN GENERAL, A COMMUNICATION STRATEGY TELLING PEOPLE WHAT THEY HAVE TO DO ALL BACK TIRES.

>> THE HEAD OF THE NONPROFIT OF THE "NEW YORK TIMES" SAYS, I GET THE APPEAL OF EMBRACING OPTIMISM, IT MAKES EVERYTHING SO MUCH EASIER.

PESSIMISM IS SO EXHAUSTING, SO IS PASSION, WHAT YOU SAY TO THAT?

>> I THINK WE DISAGREE ON WHAT MOTIVATES PEOPLE.

I AM VERY CLEAR IN THE I-FRAME OPTIMISM, NOT AS A BLIND OPTIMISM THAT THINGS WILL BE FINE AND WE CAN SIT BACK, BECAUSE THINGS WILL NOT BE FINE IF WE SIT BACK.

THE WAY I-FRAME IT IS CAUTIOUS OPTIMISM, WHICH STATES THAT WE CAN MEET POSITIVE CHANGE, IF WE DRIVE IT.

A VERY ACTIVE FORM OF OPTIMISM, NOT A SITTING BACK AND DOING NOTHING.

FOR ME, THAT JUST SEEMS TO BE MORE EFFECTIVE WAY OF MOTIVATING PEOPLE TO TAKE ACTION , RATHER THAN TELLING THEM, THIS IS A REALLY BAD PROBLEM, AND LEAVING THEM WITH NO SOLUTIONS.

>>> THE BOOK IS CALLED "NOT THE END OF THE WORLD."

HANNAH RITCHIE, THANKS FOR JOINING US.

>>> THAT IS IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.

IF YOU WANT TO FIND OUT WHAT IS COMING UP ON THE SHOW EACH NIGHT, SIGN UP FOR OUR NEWSLETTER.

PBS.ORG.

JOIN US AGAIN NEXT TIME.