>> HELLO, EVERYONE, AND WELCOME TO AMANPOUR & COMPANY.

HERE IS WHAT'S COMING UP.

>>> A TIPPING POINT FOR UKRAINE, WE GET A GRIM REPORT FROM THE FRONT LINES, AND RUSSIA EXPERT FIONA HILL TELLS ME WHY THIS IS SO MUCH MORE THAN JUST ABOUT UKRAINE.

>>> THEN, TO KILL A TIGER DIRECTOR --JOIN ME TO DISCUSS THE CHILLING DOCUMENTARY ON SEXUAL VIOLENCE IN INDIA.

>>> PLUS THE NEW YORKERS -- THE POLITICS OF MEMORY.

>> AMANPOUR & COMPANY IT'S MADE POSSIBLE BY THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT, JIM ATTWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS, CANDACE KING WEIR, THE FAMILY FOUNDATION OF LEILA AND MICKEY STRAUS, MARK J. BLECHNER, SATIN J MELVIN, CHARLES LOW WAS ROSENBLUM, KOO AND PATRICIA YUEN, BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG, ADDITIONAL --AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATIONS FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

THANK YOU.

>> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE.

I'M CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR IN LONDON.

>>> UKRAINE IS ENTERING ITS SECOND LONG HARD WINTER IN WAR.

TROOPS ARE DIGGING IN FOR ANOTHER FROZEN --ABOUT RUSSIA'S PROSPECTS ON THE BATTLEFIELD AND BEYOND.

PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY'S RECENT TRIP TO WASHINGTON DID NOT YIELD THE RESULTS HE WANTED WITH THE SENATE DEFERRING ANY VOTE ON EIGHT UNTIL THE NEXT YEAR.

NICK PAYTON WALSH HAS THIS REPORT FROM THE FRONT LINES, SHOWING JUST HOW GRIM THINGS IS WAR, AND IT CAN BE DISTURBING TO WATCH.

>> Reporter: THIS IS WHERE THE BILLIONS WERE MEANT TO SPILL A BIG FRUIT BUT WITH A COUNTER OFFENSIVE WAS SUPPOSED TO KICKED RUSSIA TO THE SEA THIS SUMMER, NOW, IT IS A MUD, DEATH, DEADLOCK, AND THAT REMNANTS OF AMERICAN HEALTH VANISHING.

IT'S NOTABLY DIFFERENT MOOD HERE, DARK, FRANKLY, IN THE SUMMER, THEY WERE FEELING LIKE THEY HAD THE WORLD AT THEIR BACK, MOVING FORWARDS.

NOW, IT IS SLOW, DANGEROUS, AND A REAL SENSE OF DESPAIR, TO BE HONEST.

40 RUSSIAN DRONES SWARMED ONE UKRAINIAN TRENCH SHARE IN A DAY.

DOWN HERE, IN THIS TINY BASEMENT THE RULE IS DO NOT GET SEEN.

THE OTHER SIDE ARE NOT SO LUCKY.

TWO RUSSIANS SPOTTED MOVING ALONE.

A MORTAR STRIKE THROUGH JUST SO MANY RUSSIANS NOW.

USUALLY MORE MEAT MEANS MORE MINUTES, THE COMMANDER SAYS, BUT SOMETIMES THEY HAVE SUCCESS.

BATTERIES DIE FAST IN THE COLD, AND RUSSIA JAMMING SEEMS TO DAMAGE THEM, TOO.

THIS --ACROSS LIVES AND HOW MUCH HORROR MOSCOW IS WILLING TO BRING TO BE SEEN TO WIN.

A MATTER OF MONTHS, AS YOU HERE IN THE SUMMER, HOW MUCH DAMAGE HAS BEEN DONE.

IF YOU STOP THINKING ABOUT UKRAINE, BE SURE TO TIP HAS NOT.

AT COMMAND, THEY WATCH TREE LINES NOW BEAR.

THE DEAD, THE INJURED, IT'S UNCLEAR IF RUSSIA TREATS THEM DIFFERENTLY.

ANOTHER UKRAINIAN DRONE AIMS FOR A FOXHOLE.

WHAT THEY HAVE STRUGGLED WITH ARE THE WAVES OF RUSSIAN ASSAULTS.

DOZENS OF RUSSIAN PRISONERS, WELL BACKED UP BY ARMOR, WHO THEY SAY ARE GIVEN A MIX OF DRUGS.

THEY SHOWED US THIS GRAPHIC VIDEO OF A WOODED RUSSIAN.

HIS LEGS, SEVERED, SEEMINGLY HIGH ENOUGH TO SMILE THROUGH HIS FATAL INJURIES.

STILL, THEY CLAIM THAT THEY HAVE HELD HARD-WON GROUND BUT ANY HUGE COST.

AS WE SAY IN THE ARMY, HE SAYS, THE COUNTEROFFENSIVE WAS SMOOTH ON PAPER, BUT WE FORGOT ABOUT THE DITCHES.

COLOSSAL CHANGES ARE TAKING PLACE, A STARTED MAKING THEIR OWN ATTACK DRONES AND OUTNUMBER HOURS, BUT --BADLY LIKE A KIDS TOY.

>> [ SPEAKING IN A NON-ENGLISH LANGUAGE ] >> Reporter: THEY SAY A DRONE HAS HIT A TRENCH AND BLOWN UP A GAS HEATER.

>> [ SPEAKING IN A NON-ENGLISH LANGUAGE ] >> Reporter: THE SILENCE, THE WAIT FOR NEWS, AGONY.

>> [ SPEAKING IN A NON-ENGLISH LANGUAGE ] >> Reporter: DOES IT FEEL LIKE THE CASUALTIES ARE GETTING WORSE?

EVERY CASUALTY MAKES A DIFFERENCE, HE SAYS.

IT AFFECTS MORALE.

IT'S VERY --SERGEY WAS ONE OF FOUR UKRAINIAN SAID I, AND ABOUT 50 THAT WEEK.

THEY HAVEN'T HAD TO REALLY TALK ABOUT LOSING IN THIS WAR, BUT THIS IS WHAT IT LOOKS LIKE.

IT'S NOT JUST DRONES.

THIS RUSSIAN VIDEO SEEMS TO SHOW A NEW THREAT, GAS.

COSTA, FLAMMABLE.

INSTANCE ON THIS FRONT, KILLING ONE.

HERE ARE TWO SURVIVORS.

>> Translator: AT FIRST, I SAW SMOKE.

WE RAN OUT FROM THE TRENCH AND THAT GAS SUDDENLY CAUGHT FIRE.

THE TRENCH WAS IN FLAMES.

AS THIS GAS BURNS, BLINDS YOU, YOU CAN'T BREATHE.

WE DIDN'T EVEN HAVE A SECOND.

>> Translator: YOU INHALE IT TWICE, AND THEN YOU FAIL TO BREATHE.

>> Reporter: MEDICAL --AND CNN WAS TOLD A FORM OF CS GAS WAS USED.

AND THERE WERE INJURIES INSIDE YOUR MOUTH?

>> Translator: ON MY JEANS, EVERYWHERE.

INSIDE THE MOUTH.

MY FACE IS SWOLLEN AND COVERED IN RED MARKS.

>> Reporter: IT'S AN UGLY, SAVAGE WORLD, EVEN ON A TV SCREEN.

THERE SEEMS LITTLE MOSCOW WON'T DO BUT TOO MUCH THE WEST WON'T.

>> NICK PAYTON WALSH, INCREDIBLE REPORTING THERE.

A GRIM REALITY, INDEED, BUT PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY IS STILL PROJECTING OPTIMISM.

>> Translator: TALKING ABOUT FINANCIALS, WE ARE WORKING VERY HARD ON THIS AND I AM CERTAIN THAT THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA WILL NOT BETRAY US AND THAT ON WHICH WE AGREED WITH THE UNITED STATES WILL -- COMPLETELY.

>> YOU KNOW THE STAKES BETTER THAN FIONA HILL, RUSSIA EXPERT WHO SERVED ON FORMER PRESIDENT TRUMP'S NATIONAL SECURITY COUNCIL.

SHE TOLD ME WHY PUTIN THINKS HE HAS THE WINNING TICKET.

WE SPOKE RECENTLY.

FIONA HILL, WELCOME BACK TO THE PROGRAM.

>> THANKS SO MUCH, CHRISTIANE, GREAT TO BE WITH YOU.

>> SO FIONA HILL, IF YOU WERE WHAT YOU WERE BEFORE, AND ADVISER IN THE SECURITY APPARATUS, WHAT WOULD YOU BE ADVISING THIS AND FULFILLING PRESIDENT BIDEN AND HIS ALLIES PLEDGING TO DEFEND DEMOCRACY -- FOR AS LONG AS IT TAKES.

>> LOOK, WE ARE IN THE SAME KIND OF INFECTION POINT AND THE SAME JUNCTURE IN WORLD WAR II.

IF YOU KIND OF WANT TO DO COUNTERFACTUAL, THINK IF JAPAN'S ATTACK HAD NOT BROUGHT THE UNITED STATES INTO THE WAR, WHAT OF THE HELL WOULD EVERYONE HAVE DONE WITH GRAY BRICK AND --GREAT BRITAIN?

THAT IS THE RUSSIAN WE ARE BEING ASKED.

BIDEN GET THIS, THE MINISTRATION GETS THIS, A LOT OF PEOPLE IRRESPECTIVE OF POLITICAL PARTY GET THIS.

OTHERS THE IN EUROPE, THE SAME THING IS HAPPENING, BUT IN THE UNITED STATES, THE FOCUS IS REALLY ABOUT DOMESTIC POLITICS, ABOUT THEIR OWN ELECTIONS, THEIR OWN CONSTITUENCIES, AND WE HAVE TO FIND A WAY OF BREAKING THROUGH THAT LOGJAM BECAUSE RIGHT NOW, VLADIMIR PUTIN THINKS THAT HE HAS THE WINNING TICKET HERE, THE WINNING EDGE, AND HE IS ALREADY, AS WE SPEAK, SENDING OUT FEELERS TO TRY TO GAUGE WHETHER THE UNITED STATES AND EUROPEAN COUNTRIES ARE READY TO CAPITULATE, GIVE UP UKRAINE, AND ACTUALLY PUSH FORWARD ON NEGOTIATIONS.

HE'S SENDING EMISSARIES OUT, LOTS OF PEOPLE ARE GETTING APPROACHED.

PUTIN THINKS THIS IS A CAPRICIOUS TIME FOR HIM TO BASICALLY DECLARE A CEASE-FIRE AND BASICALLY PARTITION UKRAINE.

THAT IS THE MOMENT WE ARE IN.

>> THAT IS REALLY INTERESTING.

THAT IS VERY INTERESTING INFORMATION.

I HAD NOT REALIZED THAT HE WAS SERIOUS BECAUSE, UP UNTIL NOW, WE HAVE HEARD THAT PUTIN DOES NOT WANT TO NEGOTIATE.

HE JUST THINKS TIME IS ON HIS SIDE.

BUT THIS IS FASCINATING -- >> WELL, IN MANY RESPECTS, HE DOESN'T WANT TO NEGOTIATE, CHRISTIANE.

WHAT HE WANTS TO DO IS BASICALLY LAYOUT THE TERMS OF UKRAINE SURRENDER.

NEGOTIATION IS A BIT OF A MISNOMER HERE.

WHEN HE SAYS I'M READY TO NEGOTIATE, HE IS BASICALLY SAYING ARE YOU READY TO GIVE IT UP?

AND WE WILL NEGOTIATE THOSE TERMS, MY TERMS, WHICH IS NOT GIVING UP UKRAINIAN TERRITORY.

SO WE HAVE A DETERRENCE PROBLEM ACROSS THE HORIZON HERE.

IT WILL REPLENISH ITS DEPLETED STOCKS AND OF COURSE, YOU KNOW, PUTIN THINKS HE HAS AN UNLIMITED SUPPLY OF MANPOWER WHEN HE'S PULLING PEOPLE OUT OF JAILS AND OUT OF REMOTE AREAS.

THAT IS A CAPITULATION HE'S GOT SOME WILLING OF, I DON'T KNOW WHAT TO CALL THEM.

WILLING BELIEVERS IN THE U.S. CONGRESS, SENATOR JD VANCE.

>> HE ABSOLUTELY HAS.

>> IT'S TIME FOR UKRAINE TO ESSENTIALLY GIVE UP TERRITORY.

>> YES, AND IT'S NOT JUST IN THE U.S. CONGRESS.

IT'S GLOBALLY AT THIS POINT.

WE'VE ALREADY HAD TWO YEARS OF --THAT'S NOT THE MAIN ISSUE ANYMORE.

>> CAN I ASK YOU BLUNTLY, DO YOU THINK, IF THIS CONTINUES, THAT PUTIN CAN WIN?

UKRAINE CAN LOSE, AND IF SO, WHAT DOES THAT MEAN FOR EUROPE AND THE UNITED STATES?

>> YES TO THE FIRST TWO POINT.

OF COURSE.

IT DOESN'T MATTER HOW MANY MEN HE'S LOST.

THERE'S MORE THAN HUNDRED THOUSAND RUSHING CASUALTIES, INCLUDING PEOPLE WHO HAVE DIED OR BEEN SERIOUSLY INJURED.

PUTIN DOESN'T CARE ABOUT THAT.

THAT'S BESIDES THE POINT.

HE DOESN'T CARE ABOUT THE FACT THAT HE'S HAD TO DISTORT HIS WHOLE ECONOMY TO A WAR ECONOMY.

YOU KNOW, FOR NOW, THE RUSSIAN ECONOMY HAS ADAPTED.

THIS IS VERY DETRIMENTAL BUT HE'S NOT THINKING ABOUT THE LONG TERM.

HE THINKS OVER THE LONG TERM THAT HE WILL WIN AND RIGHT NOW, THE UNITED STATES AND UKRAINE AND EUROPE, EVERYBODY LOSES.

HE TURNS EVERYTHING TO HIS ADVANTAGE.

RIGHT NOW, THAT'S WHAT HE'S THINKING.

WHAT DOES THAT DO TO ALL OF US IN THE LONG TERM?

I THINK THAT ACTUALLY SHOWS THAT THE WEST IS INCAPABLE OF STICKING TO ITS GROUND AND THERE WILL BE A DETERRENT EFFECT AFTER THIS.

I WANT TO EXPLAIN THAT A MOMENT.

HE WILL EMBOLDEN.

IT DOESN'T MEAN HE'S NECESSARILY GOING TO SEND TANKS INTO --THE UNITED STATES AND NATO, AS WELL, HAVE NO STICKING POWER.

HE WILL TURN AROUND AND SAY WE DEFEATED NATO.

NOT BECAUSE THEY WERE DIRECTLY INVOLVED IN UKRAINE BUT BECAUSE HE ALWAYS SAYS AND HE SAID BEFORE WHEN HE THREATENS, HE DELIVERS ON THE WEST, PROMISES MUCH REMEMBER NORTH KOREA IS ALSO INVOLVED IN SUPPORTING NORTH KOREA AND IRAN, AND IT WILL BLEED OVER THIS WILL NOT SOLVE THE PROBLEM, IT WILL CAUSE ANOTHER HOST OF PROBLEMS AND AMERICAN AND WESTERN LEADERSHIP WILL BE GREATLY DIMINISHED BY THIS.

>> THE ENTIRE EFFORT OF THE UNITED STATES AND EUROPE IS TO WEAKEN PUTIN THROUGH SANCTIONS THE LAST MANY YEARS.

BUT WE ARE HEARING, AND YOU ELUDED TO IT, THAT THE DOMESTIC ECONOMY IS RAMPING UP, THAT EVENING, THERE IS A CONSTRUCTION BOOM, THERE IS RISING REAL ESTATE PRICES.

AN EXILED WRITER, WHITES -- RIGHTS IN THE WASHINGTON POST.

DEFYING THE ONES THAT ARE EXPECTED TO HAVE A DEVASTATING EFFECT.

THE SOVIET UNION'S COLD WAR ISOLATION IS NOT REPEATED ITSELF.

PUTIN'S RUSSIA CAN GET MANY OF THE SUPPLIES IT NEEDS FROM CHINA.

SO HOW WORRYING IS THAT?

>> IT'S VERY WORRYING BECAUSE THIS IS A SHOCK TO MEDIUM, ABSOLUTELY RIGHT.

ONE OF THE EFFECTS OF SANCTIONS AND SANCTIONING RUSSIAN BUSINESS PEOPLE AND OLIGARCHS IS TO MAKE THEM BRING ALL THEIR CAPITAL FROM OUTSIDE IN EUROPE AND BACK INTO RUSSIA OR TO BASICALLY PUT IT BACK INTO THE MIDDLE EAST, UAE FOR EXAMPLE.

AS PUTIN WOULD PROBABLY SAY IT, HE DOESN'T CARE ABOUT THAT.

SEEMS LIKE A PRETTY SURE THING TO BE PRESENT AGAIN UNTIL AT LEAST 2036.

SO THAT'S WHAT HE'S PLAYING FOR.

SO HE'S RIGHT TO CALL THE ALARM HERE.

THE ONLY WAY THAT CHANGES HIS MIND IS WHEN HE FEELS PRESSURE FROM A VERY LARGE ACTORS AND THAT'S NOT WHAT HE FEELS RIGHT NOW.

HE'S JUST BEING IN RECENT WEEKS IN THE UAE AND SAUDI ARABIA, HE DOESN'T FEEL ANY PRESSURE FROM CHINA.

HE'S NOT FEELING ANY PRESSURE FROM THE SYSTEM TO END THIS WAR.

IN FACT, ALL THE PRESSURE IS ON THE UNITED STATES AND ON EUROPE, NOT AT RUSH AT ALL.

HE DOESN'T GET ANY SCRUTINY FROM HIS OWN PRESS.

HE IS BASICALLY SCOT-FREE RIGHT NOW.

THAT SHOULD BE SOMETHING THAT PEOPLE SHOULD BE CONTEMPLATING.

EVERY TIME THAT WE STEP OUT THERE IN SUCH A CRITICAL WAY ABOUT AMERICAN PLAYERS.

IRRESPECTIVE OUR PARTY'S OWN POSITION, WE ARE HANDING, AGAIN, ANOTHER OPENING TO VLADIMIR PUTIN TO MESS ABOUT IN OUR POLITICS.

WE HAVE THE PRIME MINISTER OF HUNGRY MESSING OUT AND ABOUT IN OUR DOMESTIC POLITICS, AS WELL.

AMERICA HAS NOW BECOME A PLAYGROUND FOR OTHER INTEREST IN OTHER WAYS THAT WE HAVE NOT SEEN FOR A VERY LONG TIME.

>> THE WAR OF ISRAEL AND HAMAS.

YOU HAVE WRITTEN, IN A SENSE, THE HAMAS ATTACK ON ISRAEL IS A KIND OF PEARL HARBOR MOMENT.

IT OPENED A SECOND FRONT.

>> THIS IS OBVIOUSLY AN ATTACK ON ISRAEL.

I JUST WANT TO, THE RECORD IS JUST A LITTLE POINT OF INTEREST.

OCTOBER 7th IS VLADIMIR PUTIN'S BIRTHDAY.

IT'S WORTH NOTING THIS THAT WHEN THAT DATE IS REFLECTED I MEAN IS VERY CLOSE TO ANNIVERSARIES OF PEARL HARBOR IN ANY CASE BECAUSE IN MANY RESPECTS, IT'S IN JEOPARDY IN THREE DIFFERENT ARENAS OR MANY OF THE SAME PLAYERS ARE VERY ACTIVE.

THE WHOLE PERSPECTIVE OF ONE OF A PROXY WAR AGAINST UNITED STATES.

GLOBAL AND REGIONAL HEGEMONY.

SEEING THE UNITED STATES BEING PUT IN THE SPOTLIGHT BY RUSSIA, BY CHINA, OBVIOUSLY NORTH KOREA OR IRAN.

MANY OTHER COUNTRIES HAS REALLY BEEN THE CAUSE OF ALL OF THIS TURMOIL.

THE UNITED STATES IS GETTING BLAMED FOR WHAT'S HAPPENING IN ISRAEL AND GAZA.

JUST AS MUCH AS IT IS IN UKRAINE AND NOW IT'S A PUSH BY RUSSIA AND OTHER COUNTRIES TO ISOLATE THE UNITED STATES.

THE UNITED STATES IS ON THE BACK FOOT HERE.

PUTIN IS OBVIOUSLY GOING TO TAKE EVERY ADVANTAGE OF THIS AND SO WILL CHINA.

THIS LOOKS LIKE A WORLD WITH THREE MAJOR FIRES.

BUT SMOLDERING.

IT MIGHT BE IGNITED IN THE INDO PACIFIC REGION, AS WELL.

UNITED STATES GLOBAL POSITION IS REALLY CHALLENGED HERE.

>> WHAT IS THE ANTIDOTE TO THIS, AND DOES THE ACTION BY CONGRESS SIMPLY PUT THE U.S.

IN MORE DANGER.

>> IT DOES PUT THE UNITED STATES AND MORE DANGER.

IF WE WANT TO HAVE ANY MORE LEADERSHIP IN SHIPPING INSTEAD OF PAX AMERICANA, WE GET PACK SENECA.

WILL HAVE A VERY DIFFERENT WORLD, ONE IN WHICH WILL BE DIFFICULT FOR THE UNITED STATES AND THE WESTERN LINES TO PLAY IN.

WE HAVE A GREAT DESIRE AND ALL AROUND THE WORLD NOW IN WORLD AFFAIRS FOR HAVING UNITED STATES TAKEN DOWN, NOT SEEING RUSSIA WEEKEND.

CHINA AS THE DOMINANT POWER BUT THERE'S NO REAL DESIRE TO SEE THE UNITED STATES ON TOP.

THAT MOMENT IS LONG GONE FOR THE UNITED STATES AND THIS IS REALLY WHAT WE ARE SEEING PLAYING OUT HERE OVER THE LAST MOMENTS OF THIS.

THE SAD FACT IS IT'S NOT BEING FULLY RECOGNIZED IN THE UNITED STATES OR ELSEWHERE.

IT'S AGAIN ONE OF THOSE REALLY PIVOTAL MOMENTS AND IF YOU WANT TO STEP UP, THIS IS THE MOMENT TO DO SO AND NOT NECESSARILY TO OUR BENEFIT THEN JUST SIT BACK.

>> FIONA HILL, THANKS SO MUCH FOR PUTTING THAT ALL OUT FOR EVERYBODY HERE.

THANK YOU.

>> THANK YOU, CHRISTIANE.

THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.

>> NOW.

>>> OUR NEXT GUEST HAS WON THE PRESTIGIOUS HANNAH ARENDT PRICE --AFTER A VERY PUBLIC SPAT.

AUTHOR AND STAFF WRITER OF THE NEW YORKER MASHA GESSEN FACED --AFTER CARING GAZA TO JEWISH GHETTOS IN THE ERA.

CRITICAL THOUGHT AT THIS TIME.

>> THANK YOU, CHRISTIANE.

MASHA GESSEN, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US AGAIN.

>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.

>> YOU ALREADY FAMILIAR FACE AND VOICE HERE ON THIS PROGRAM.

A LOT OF PEOPLE ARE FAMILIAR WITH YOUR WORK.

THERE IS ONE PIECE WE WANTED TO TALK ABOUT, A PIECE THAT MANY PEOPLE MAY HAVE SEEN BY NOW.

THE TITLE OF YOUR PIECE WAS "THE SHADOW OF POLITICS: HOW -- " YOU REFLECTED ON THE POLITICS OF MEMORY, WHICH HAVE BECOME THE POLICY OF MEMORY.

I JUST WANTED TO ASK YOU WHAT ARE THE POLITICS OF MEMORY?

WHAT DID YOU MEAN BY THAT.

>> I STARTED OUT REPORTING IN GERMANY IN THE POLITICS OF MEMORY IN THERE, AND THEN I MENTION PULL A LITTLE BIT.

WHAT I'M WRITING ABOUT IS THE WAY IN WHICH THE HOLOCAUST IS WIELDED TO PUT A VERY BLUNTLY, TO TURN ISRAEL INTO A FOREVER VICTIM THAT IS UNASSAILABLE.

AND TO TURN OFF ANY CRITICISM --AND IN 4 FOUND, NOT JUST THE SILENCE CRITICISM -- IN GAZA.

>> I TAKE IT YOUR VIEWS OF THIS DID NOT START WITH GOSAR.

HOW DID YOU THINK THIS STARTED.

>> THIS, FOR OBVIOUS REASONS, THE CENTER, OR AT LEAST ONE OF THE CENTERS OF THIS MEMORY POLITICS.

IN GERMANY, OVER THE LAST FEW YEARS, IT DID NOT START YESTERDAY.

THE WHOLE MACHINERY OF ANTI- SEMITISM BUREAUCRACY HAS SHOWN UP.

ONE OF THE PRECIPITATING FACTORS IS THIS RESOLUTION, AND IT SOUNDS VERY OBSCURE, BUT IT'S HAD A HUGE INFLUX.

THERE IS, RATHER OR NOT THE REVOLUTION OR THE DEFINITION OF ANTI-SEMITISM THAT WAS WRITTEN BY THE INTERNATIONAL HOLOCAUST REMEMBRANCE ASSOCIATION.

THIS IS A NONGOVERNMENTAL ORGANIZATION IN THIS DEFINITION HAS NO LEGAL COURSE PER SE.

BUT IT'S INTERPRETED IN SUCH A WAY AS TO BASICALLY FRAME ANY CRITICISM OF THE STATE OF ISRAEL AND, IMPORTANTLY TO MY PIECE, ANY COMPARISON OF ISRAELI POLICIES TO THOSE OF THE NAZIS AS ANTI-SOMATIC.

THIS DEFINITION OF ANTI- SEMITISM IS USED BY THIS ANTI- ANTI-SEMITISM TO SILENCE ANY CRITICISM.

IT'S HAD A PERMIT -- SO MUCH OF THE ALL HIS PRODUCTION.

AND BASICALLY ANYONE WHO IS -- AND JEWISH ARTISTS AND WRITERS AND THINKERS.

BECAUSE WE CARE ABOUT ISRAEL.

HAVE BEEN SILENCED BY THIS DEFINITION.

BUT IT DOESN'T STOP IN GERMANY.

THIS IS ACTUALLY A HUGE ISSUE IN THE UNITED STATES.

>> ONE OF THE THINGS YOU POINTED OUT IS THERE HAVE BEEN ISSUES LIKE GOVERNMENTS TO DEFINE ANTI-SEMITISM SO THAT THEY CAN ADDRESS IT WHEN IT EXISTS TO, YOU KNOW, WHATEVER MEANS AND YOU POINT OUT THAT THIS COMING YOU TALKED ABOUT THIS IN THE INTERNATIONAL HOLOCAUST REMEMBRANCE ALLIANCE THEY CAME UP WITH THIS DEFINITION.

THIS WAS IN 2016.

IT WAS ADOPTED BY DOZENS OF EU STATES AND THE UNITED STATES.

ONE OF THE ISSUES THAT IDENTIFIES IS DRAWING COMPARISONS OF CONTEMPORARY ISRAELI POLICY TO THAT OF THE NAZIS.

WHY IS THAT SO IMPORTANT WHAT YOU TAKE ISSUE WITH THAT?

>> LOOK, OUR ENTIRE POST SECOND WORLD WAR IDEA OF HOW WE PROTECT PEOPLE, HOW WE PROTECT HUMAN RIGHTS, HOW WE PROTECT PEOPLE FROM CRIMES AGAINST HUMANITY.

THAT ENTIRE INTELLECTUAL AND LEGAL FRAMEWORK IS BASED ON WHAT CAME AFTER THE HOLOCAUST.

THIS IS WHEN THE WORLD SAID NEVER AGAIN.

SO IN THE SENSE, EVERY TIME, WHEN WE ARE LOOKING AT A COUNTRY AND ITS HUMAN RIGHTS RECORD, AND THE WAY IT WAGES WAR, WE ARE COMPARING IT TO THE HOLOCAUST.

WE ARE COMPARING IT TO THE.

DOES THIS RISE TO THE KIND OF CRYING, TO THE KIND OF VIOLATION THAT REQUIRES THE WORLD TO INTERVENE AND PROTECT PEOPLE IN THE WAY THAT IT SECOND WORLD WAR.

SO WHEN WITH THE SUPPORT OF THE RIGHT WING ISRAELI GOVERNMENT, WHO HAS BEEN IN POWER FOR MORE YEARS THAN I CAN COUNT, THIS DEFINITION PREVENTS THAT COMPARISON.

IT BASICALLY POSITIONS ISRAEL AS BEING OUTSIDE THE FRAMEWORK OF INTERNATIONAL HUMANITARIAN LAW.

AND OUTSIDE THE HUMAN RIGHTS FRAMEWORK.

THAT IS WHY FOR BIDDING THAT COMPARISON IS SUCH A GRIEVOUS THING.

>> YOU ARE EXPANDING IN THE PIECE, WHY HOLOCAUST REMEMBRANCE IS SO IMPORTANT TO GERMANY.

FOR VERY GOOD REASONS.

FOR VERY GOOD REASONS.

HERE IS THIS LINE IN PARTICULAR THAT SEEMS TO EVOKE A LOT OF BACKLASH.

YOU SAY YOU ARE COMPARING GAZA TO JEWISH GHETTOS UNDER THE NAZIS, YOU SAY NOT LIKE THE INNER-CITY GHETTO, BUT LIKE THE JEWISH GHETTO, OCCUPIED BY AND WE ARE OFF TO THE RACES.

>> SO LAVISHLY VIOLATED THE LEATHER WITH THAT DEFINITION.

I AM NOT THE FIRST PERSON TO DO IT.

I WAS ABOUT TO RECEIVE THE HANNAH ARENDT PRIZE FOR POLITICAL THOUGHT, WHICH HANNAH WAS ONE OF THE ORIGINAL PEOPLE WHO REALLY WAS --BACK IN 1948, COMPARING THE POLITICS OF ACTIONS OF SOME IS REALLY POLITICAL PARTIES TO THOSE OF THE NAZIS.

I THINK IT'S ESSENTIAL TO MAKE THAT COMPARISON RIGHT NOW.

BECAUSE IF WE ARE SERIOUS ABOUT NEVER AGAIN, THIS IS THE MOMENT.

PEOPLE CAN STILL BE SAVED IN GAZA.

>> DID YOU ANTICIPATE A BACKLASH?

A NEGATIVE REACTION?

ANGER, THEORY --FURY?

>> SURE.

I KNOW THIS IS WHEN PEOPLE THROUGH THEIR LAPTOPS ACROSS THE ROOM.

THAT LINE WAS THE POINT OF THE PIECE.

THE OTHER 7500 WORDS WERE MAKING MY ARGUMENT.

OF COURSE IT'S A HUGE THING TO MAKE THAT COMPARISON.

OF COURSE IT MAKES PEOPLE UPSET.

IT SHOULD MAKE PEOPLE UPSET.

WE SHOULD BE LOSING SLEEP EVERY DAY BECAUSE OF WHAT'S HAPPENING IN GAZA, BECAUSE THE COMPARISON IS VALID.

>> ONE OF THE THINGS ABOUT YOUR PIECE THAT WAS SO PROFOUND AND FRANKLY DIFFICULT TO TALK ABOUT IN A SENSITIVE WAY IS THAT YOU SPOKE ABOUT IT MAKES ISRAEL A PERMANENT VICTIM AND I THOUGHT YOU MIGHT WANT TO TALK ABOUT WHY YOU THINK THAT.

EMPHASIZING THE SINGULARITY OF THE EXPERIENCE AND THINK IT ONLY APPLIES TO JEWISH PEOPLE YOU FEEL THAT THAT IS SO KIND OF COMPROMISING OF ISRAEL AND ITS OWN KIND OF --WHAT YOU SAY ABOUT THAT?

>> I THINK IT'S COMPROMISING ITS MORAL AGENCY BECAUSE WHEN YOU ARE ACTIVELY BEING A VICTIM, WHEN YOU ARE IN SUCH EXTRAORDINARY PAIN AND THIS PAIN HAS, INDEED, PASSED ON THROUGH GENERATIONS, HOW DO YOU HOLD YOURSELF TO ACCOUNT MORALLY?

WHEN YOU ARE DRIVEN BY THE DESIRE FOR -- AS ISRAELIS, MANY ARE, NOT RIGHT NOW IN GAZA, WHO IS GOING TO HOLD YOU TO ACCOUNT?

IF YOU ARE RELIEVED ABOUT RESPONSIBILITY BECAUSE YOUR PEOPLE ARE A PERMANENT VICTIM, MY PEOPLE, IN THIS CASE, OR PERMIT VICTIMS.

IF THE WORLD IS NOT GOING TO INTERVENE AND HOLD YOU TO ACCOUNT, THAT CREATES MORAL CATASTROPHE.

>> SO THE BACKLASH.

YOU ARE ON YOUR WAY TO RECEIVE THIS PRESTIGIOUS PRIZE IN GERMANY AND THEN A, THE FOUNDATION, A FOUNDATION CONNECTED TO THE AWARD CALLED FOR IT TO BE RESCINDED.

THE CITY WITHDREW THE VENUE WHERE THE PRICE CEREMONY WAS SCHEDULED TO TAKE PLACE.

THE CEREMONY WAS SUSPENDED.

IT WAS SCALED BACK.

YOU DID RECEIVE THE AWARD, BUT YOU KNOW, FRANKLY, LET'S BE HONEST.

IT'S KIND OF BECOME AN INTERNATIONAL INCIDENT.

CAN YOU TELL US HOW YOU FOUND OUT ABOUT ALL THIS?

>> I WAS ABOUT TO FLY HIM TO GERMANY WHEN I GOT AN EMAIL FROM ONE OF THE ORGANIZERS.

ACTUALLY, A SCHOLAR WHO IS A MEMBER OF THE HANNAH ARENDT ORGANIZATION THAT AWARDS THE PRIZE.

THE SUBJECT LINE WAS BE PREPARED AND SHE SAID THE -- FOUNDATION, WHICH IS NOT JUST A FOUNDATION, IT'S A BIG POLITICAL FOUNDATION IN GERMANY AND IT'S CONNECTED TO THE GREEN WORK.

IT'S THE CONNECTION TO THE GREEN PARTY, WHICH IS THE GOVERNMENT PARTY IN GERMANY RIGHT NOW.

SHE SAID THEY HAVE PULLED OUT AND AS A RESULT, WE LOST THE VENUE, WHICH WAS CITY HALL IN THE CITY OF BREMEN.

WE WILL HOLD THE PRIZE AND I THOUGHT FOR A MINUTE ABOUT WHETHER I SHOULD FLY OR NOT AND I FLEW AND BY THE TIME I GOT THERE, IT WAS KIND OF AN INTERNATIONAL SCANDAL AND IN THE END, THE PRICE CERTAINLY WAS HELD, INSTEAD OF A DINNER FOR 4 TO 500 PEOPLE AT CITY HALL.

THERE WAS A DOZEN PEOPLE DINING AT A PRIVATE HOUSE AND THEN THE NEXT DAY, THERE WAS A PRICE CEREMONY, I KID YOU NOT, AND A --FORTIFIED SHED BECAUSE WE COULD NOT GET ANOTHER VENUE.

>> THEY SAID IT'S INCOME PRINCIPLE TO US HOW A SCHOLAR AS EXPERIENCED AS MASHA GESSEN, WHO HAS MADE SUCH A GREAT CONTRIBUTION TO THE CRITICAL ANALYSIS OF RUSSIAN IMPERIALISM, CAN SERIOUSLY EQUATE GAZA WITH THE NAZI EXTERMINATION GHETTOS.

FOR ONLY -- PREJUDICE AGAINST THE JEWISH STATE.

THIS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH POLITICAL JUDGMENT IN THE SENSE OF HANNAH ARENDT.

MASHA GESSEN, IS FREE TO HOLD SUCH VIEWS.

WE HAVE --CRITICAL ASSESSMENT OF ISRAELI POLITICS IS ALSO A PERMANENT PART OF OUR WORK AS THE DIG, BUT MASHA GESSEN SHOULD NOT BE HONORED WITH AN AWARD THAT IS MEANT TO COMMEMORATE THE JEWISH PHILOSOPHER HANNAH ARENDT.

THAT'S EXTRAORDINARY.

IN ESSENCE, THEY ARE CALLING YOU A DESCENDENT OF HOLOCAUST SURVIVORS, A JEWISH THINKER, A PERSON WHO HAS, YOU KNOW, ATTACKED BY TOTALITARIAN GOVERNMENTS BEFORE, WHOSE FAMILY FLED INTO ITALIAN -- TOTALITARIAN REGIME, THE CALLING YOU AN ANTI-SEMITE.

>> THAT IS WHAT THEY ARE SAYING.

AND IT'S ALSO WHAT I WAS READING IN THIS --IT'S RUN BY NON-TRAN11.

THEY ARE DISPROPORTIONALLY JEWS.

>> WHAT YOU THINK THEY HAVE SUCH ALACRITY?

I'M JUST WONDERING WHY THERE IS NOT MUCH CRITICAL DISTANCE THERE?

THEY CLAIM THAT THEY ARE OPEN TO CRITICISM OF THE ISRAELI GOVERNMENT, AND ITS POLICIES AND ITS ACTIONS, SO I GUESS I'M JUST SORT OF WONDERING WHAT YOU MAKE OF THIS?

>> I THINK I ALSO HAVE TO SAY THAT IT IS, I DON'T I DON'T HAVE DOUBTS ABOUT HOW SINCERE THEY ARE.

I THINK THERE ARE ELEMENTS TO THE POLICY.

THE TARGETING OF JEWS, THE EASE, THE EQUATING OF JEWS WITH THE STATE OF ISRAEL, I THINK THERE'S AN ARGUMENT TO BE MADE THAT THAT IS, IN ITSELF, ANTI- SEMITIC.

IT'S NO ACCIDENT THAT THE PARTY THAT'S PROBABLY BENEFITED THE MOST FROM THIS ANTI-SEMITISM, ANTI-ANTI- SEMITISM BUREAUCRACY IS THE FAR RIGHT PARTY.

IT RODE INTO THE POLITICAL MAINSTREAM ON THIS SORT OF ANTI-SEMITISM TRUMP CARD.

AGAIN, THIS IS NOT DISSIMILAR TO WHAT WE WERE SEEING IN THE UNITED STATES RIGHT NOW.

I DON'T THINK THAT REPRESENTATIVE IS LOSING SLEEP OVER ANTI-SEMITISM.

BUT SHE SURE FINDS IT CONVENIENT TO TARGET UNIVERSITY PRESIDENTS UNDER THE GUISE OF FIGHTING ANTI-SEMITISM.

FOR THIS POLICING A SPEECH?

IT WOULD SEEM TO PEOPLE WHO ARE TARGETED BY THIS WOULD DRAW THE SAME COMPARISON THAT YOU DO.

>> IT TAKES A LOT OF TIME AND INTELLECTUAL ENERGY TO DRAW THAT COMPARISON.

AND PEOPLE DON'T HAVE TIME INTELLECTUAL ENERGY, AND THEY ARE SCARED.

YOU KNOW, JEWS ARE ACTUALLY SCARED.

I THINK A LOT OF IT IS, YOU KNOW, THE AFTERMATH OF OCTOBER 7th HAS BLINDED PEOPLE TO THE FATE OF OTHERS, WHICH IS WHAT HAPPENS WHEN PEOPLE ARE SCARED.

TO SEE WHAT HAPPENED IN ISRAEL AND TO HAVE THE ISRAELI GOVERNMENT SPIN IT AS AN ANTI- SEMITIC ATTACK WHEN IN FACT, IT WAS AN ANTI-ISRAELI ATTACK REALLY MAKES PEOPLE FEEL LIKE THEY ARE UNDER ATTACK.

SO, YOU KNOW, IN THAT STATE, PEOPLE JUST WANT TO BAN EVERYTHING, STOP EVERYTHING, GO ALONG WITH WHOEVER TELLS THEM THAT THEY ARE GOING TO BE ALE TO PUNISH THE PEOPLE RESPONSIBLE.

>> WHY DO YOU THINK IT'S IMPORTANT TO DRAW THE CONNECTION TO WHAT IS HAPPENING NOW IN GAZA?

>> WELL, WHAT'S HAPPENING IN GAZA NOW IS THAT PEOPLE WHO HAVE BEEN EFFECTIVELY --ARE BEING INDISCRIMINATELY TARGETED, KILLED, AND STARVE.

AT THIS POINT, THE STRONGEST CONNECTION, YOU KNOW, YOU MAY NOT REALIZE THAT OUT OF THE 6 MILLION JEWS WHO DIED IN THE HOLOCAUST, 1.3 DIED OF STARVATION AND DISEASE, EXACTLY WHAT'S BEING INFLICTED UPON PEOPLE IN GAZA AS A WEAPON OF WAR RIGHT NOW.

THE BIGGEST DIFFERENCE BETWEEN GAZA AND THE JEWISH GHETTO IN OCCUPIED EUROPE IS THAT MOST GAZANS ARE STILL ALIVE.

THERE'S STILL AN OPPORTUNITY FOR THE WORLD TO STOP THEM AND STEP IN AND STOP THIS.

>> YOU THINK IT'S A GENOCIDE?

WHAT IS HAPPENING IN GAZA?

WOULD YOU USE THAT EXPRESSION?

>> I THINK THERE'S A FINE -- THEY ARE VALID ARGUMENTS FOR USING BOTH TERMS, ETHNIC CLEANSING AND GENOCIDE.

BUT I THINK THAT IT'S INCUMBENT ON THE WORLD TO EITHER STOP OR PREVENT A GENOCIDE.

>> BUT YOU THINK IT ETHNIC CLEANSING >> IT IS, AT THE VERY LEAST, IT'S AN ETHNIC CLEANSING.

>> THERE ARE THOSE WHO WOULD ARGUE THAT HOWEVER VALUED YOUR CRITIQUE, A TIME WHEN JEWS ARE UNDER ATTACK IN UNITED STATES AND ELSEWHERE, YOU KNOW, FOR EXAMPLE, I DON'T KNOW, AS WE ARE SPEAKING NOW, LITERALLY HUNDREDS OF JEWISH INSTITUTIONS, SCHOOLS, SYNAGOGUES, ET CETERA, OR THE SUBJECT OF BOMB THREATS OF THE WEEKEND, AND THERE IS ARE THOSE WHO ARGUE THAT HOWEVER VALID WHAT IT IS YOU ARE SAYING RIGHT NOW, AT A TIME WHEN JEWISH PEOPLE ARE UNDER ATTACK, IT WOULD HAVE BEEN BETTER TO NOT SAY IT AND I JUST, I KNOW YOU'VE HEARD THAT SO I'D LIKE THAT.

>> LOOK, I DON'T BELIEVE THAT WE HAVE TO ACT LIKE HUMANS ARE STUPID.

I DON'T BELIEVE THAT WE HAVE TO ACT AS THOUGH WE CAN ONLY PROTECT ONE POPULATION AT A TIME.

I REALLY THINK THAT WE ARE CAPABLE OF PROTECTING JEWS IN THE UNITED STATES AND ELSEWHERE FROM ANTI-SEMITIC ATTACKS AT THE SAME TIME THAT WE CRITICIZE THE STATE OF ISRAEL AND PROTECT PALESTINIANS IN GAZA FROM AN OVERWHELMING MILITARY ONSLAUGHT.

>> MASHA GESSEN, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR TALKING WITH US ONCE AGAIN.

>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.

>>> NEXT, TO INDIA, WHERE SEXUAL VIOLENCE AGAINST WOMEN MAKES THE NATION ONE OF THE MOST DANGEROUS PLACES ON THE PLANET TO ACTUALLY BE FEMALE.

BUT DESPITE THE STIGMA FACING SURVIVORS, ONE FAMILY DECIDED TO PURSUE JUSTICE.

A NEW DOCUMENTARY, TO KILL A TIGER, FOLLOWS THE EMOTIONAL JOURNEY OF RANJIT AND HIS WIFE TO TAKE ON THE ENTRANCE DAUGHTER, WHO HAS BEEN GIVEN THE PSEUDONYM KIERAN, IS THE VICTIM OF A GANG RAPE.

>> [ SPEAKING IN A NON-ENGLISH LANGUAGE ] >> I RECENTLY SPOKE WITH THE DIRECTOR, TRENT 23, AND THE EXECUTIVE PRODUCER, SUPERSTAR ACTOR DEV PATEL, AND IT WANTING OF COURSE, THIS HAS DESCRIPTIONS OF SEXUAL VIOLENCE THAT MAY BE DIFFICULT TO HEAR.

>> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, NISHA, DEV.

SO WE ERRORED, IN THE LEAD-IN TO YOU, PART OF THE SENSITIZATION YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT.

BASICALLY A GROUP OF MEN IN THE VILLAGE TALKING ABOUT THIS ISSUE AND THIS ISSUE IS CRIME, CULTURE, VIOLENCE AGAINST WOMEN, SOMETIMES TALKED AS HONOR CRIMES AND THE REST.

WHAT WAS IT THAT TRIGGERED YOUR DESIRE TO GET INVOLVED, EVEN THOUGH YOU HAVEN'T MADE THE FILM?

>> I HAD A VERY, I WAS TRULY HUMBLED BY IT AS A PIECE OF CINEMA AND I HAD A VERY VISCERAL REACTION TO THE MATERIAL.

SPENT MOST OF MY CAREER WORKING AND TRAVELING THROUGH INDIA.

IT'S IMPOSSIBLE TO IGNORE THE CASES OF SEXUAL VIOLENCE AGAINST MINORS AND WOMEN AND THE WAY THAT NISHA DEALT WITH THE SUBJECT, THE DELICACY WHICH SHE TACKLED IT.

I WAS HUMBLED AND TRULY MOVED.

SO I'M HERE TO AMPLIFY HER VOICE.

>> DID YOU ALSO, IN A WAY, WANT TO, YOU KNOW, THE THING THAT SHE FIRST THOUGHT SHE WAS TALKING ABOUT.

MALE MASCULINITY AND, YOU KNOW THE PROBLEMS.

DID YOU WANT TO BE PART OF THAT LEARNING EXPERIENCE?

>> ABSOLUTELY.

WE NEED MALE ADVOCATES, AS WELL.

THERE'S THIS AMAZING CHARACTER THAT'S A GREAT FOUNDATION.

THERE'S MANY MEN THAT GO TO THESE RURAL VILLAGES ON THE GROUND THAT ARE HELPING OUT BUT ALSO, THIS IS A STORY ABOUT HER FATHER WHO STANDING UP AGAINST AN ENTIRE SYSTEM AND AN ENTIRE VILLAGE TO KIND OF DEFEND AND SEE JUSTICE FOR HIS DAUGHTER AND THAT IS KIND OF A TINY MIRACLE, WHEN YOU PUT IT IN THAT KIND OF CONTEXT.

>> IT IS EXTRAORDINARY HOW THE WORLD'S BIGGEST DEMOCRACY, AS IT BILLED ITSELF, HAS ALSO NOT MANAGED TO PROTECT ITS GIRLS AND WOMEN.

IT'S NOT AN ISOLATED CASE.

WE ARE CONSTANTLY REPORTING ABOUT RAPE OF YOUNG GIRL, RAPE AND THE REST OF IT.

YOU GETTING INVOLVED IN THIS, AS A MEGASTAR, YOUR NAME IS GOING TO CARRY A LOT OF WEIGHT.

DO YOU THINK THAT IT WILL HELP RAISE AWARENESS THAT MEN IN INDIA SHOULD BEHAVE DIFFERENTLY, THOSE WHO ARE INCLINED TO BE VIOLENT, AND THOSE THAT ARE INCLINED TO ACTUALLY FIGHT THE SYSTEM ON BEHALF OF THEIR MOTHERS, THEIR DAUGHTERS, SHOULD BE ENCOURAGED, RATHER THAN DISCOURAGE?

>> YOU HOPE SO.

THE TRUTH IS, I DON'T KNOW HOW MUCH WEIGHT I REALLY HAVE OUT THERE.

SO, YOU KNOW, THE MORE SUCCESS THE STORY LIKE THIS GETS, THE MORE EXPOSURE.

PEOPLE LIKE YOURSELF, GIVING US THIS PLATFORM.

I THINK WE SAW THIS WITH MY FIRST FILM, SLUM DOG.

IT WAS THE --IT WAS, IT CAME UNDER A LOT OF FIRE AND IT WAS PROBABLY GOING TO BE SQUASHED IN INDIA.

HEADS.

SUCCESS CREATED CELEBRATION, CREATED CHAINS, CREATED EXPOSURE.

SO I FEEL, YOU KNOW, I THINK IF WE AS A COLLECTIVE, GLOBALLY, CAN TAKE NOTICE OF STORIES LIKE THIS, IT MAKES PEOPLE ON THE GROUND THERE TURN THEIR HEADS.

>> SO, NISHA, TALK ABOUT THE PARENTS, FIRST.

THEY SEEM TO BE REALLY BRAVE AND DETERMINED PEOPLE GOING AGAINST THE ENTIRE CULTURE.

NOT JUST TAKING A CRIME TO TRY AND HAVE ACCOUNTABILITY BUT THEY ARE GOING AGAINST THEIR VILLAGE, THE CULTURE, WHAT'S EXPECTED OF THEM.

>> THEY ARE REALLY EXCEPTIONAL.

NOT JUST IN TERMS OF LIKE THE OBSTACLES THAT THEY WERE DEALING WITH AND DEATH THREATS IN THE COMMUNITY TURNING AGAINST THEM.

THE FACT THAT THEY STOOD UP, THE COMMUNITY AND THAT ECOSYSTEM.

THE WAY VILLAGES OPERATE IN INDIA, THAT IS, IT'S ABOUT SURVIVAL.

THOSE ARE ECOSYSTEMS THAT ARE BASED ON SURVIVAL.

THEY WERE READY TO SACRIFICE.

THEY WERE READY TO SACRIFICE THAT FOR THEIR DAUGHTER.

>> ONE OF THE ACTIVISTS SAYS A FATHER FIGHTING FOR HIS DAUGHTER IN A RAPE CASE, QUOTE, NEVER HAPPENS.

SO I WANT TO PLAY ONE OF THE QUOTES THAT YOU GAVE US.

THIS IS THE PARENTS TALKING TO THE HEADMAN WHO IS ADJUDICATING YOU.

THIS IS MOSTLY THAT MOTHER WHO'S TALKING SO WE ARE GOING TO PLAY.

>> [ SPEAKING IN A NON-ENGLISH LANGUAGE ] >> [ SPEAKING IN A NON-ENGLISH LANGUAGE ] >> I THINK THEY WERE BEING ENCOURAGED.

I DON'T WANT TO TELL FOR THE WHOLE AUDIENCE, BUT YOU CAN SAY HERE TO HAVE HER MARY HER RAPIST.

HOW COMMON IS THAT?

>> WE DON'T KNOW HOW MANY CASES ACTUALLY END UP, YOU KNOW, SURVIVORS HAVE TO, OR FIRST TO MARRY THEIR RAPIST.

THERE ARE 25 COUNTRIES THAT STILL HAVE A MERRY YOUR RAPIST LAW, IF YOU CAN BELIEVE IT.

IT WAS DEFINITELY UNUSUAL.

IT WASN'T SOMETHING THAT WAS SHOCKING IN THAT COMMUNITY.

>> AND I CHOSE THAT CLIP BECAUSE I THOUGHT IT WAS, AS A DRAMATIC CLIP, YOU KNOW, THE GUY WAS LIKE THIS HAPPEN.

NOW YOU HAVE TO MOVE ON.

>> YOU SEE THIS FATHER WITH HIS HEAD DOWN, HE'S BROKEN BY SOCIETY AND POVERTY.

YOU WERE TALKING ABOUT SURVIVAL AND POVERTY AND YOUR TALK ABOUT THESE MARCHES FOR JUSTICE AND STUFF.

BUT THIS IS THE STORY OF A MAN AND THIS QUIET ENDEARING RESILIENCE AND THAT ACHIEVES A HUGE FEET.

BUT HIS HEAD IS DOWN AND HE'S NOT BROKEN.

>> TELL US A LITTLE BIT ABOUT THE FATHER.

WHAT DOES HE DO?

WHO IS HE?

>> YET.

HE'S A FARMER AND OBVIOUSLY, YOU KNOW, VERY IMPOVERISHED FARMER.

HE HIMSELF, INTERESTINGLY ENOUGH, THIS IS SOMETHING WE DIDN'T HAVE TIME TO GET INTO IN THE FILM.

I DON'T KNOW IF YOU KNEW THIS BUT HE HIMSELF WAS RAISED BY A SINGLE MOTHER SO WHEN HE WAS A CHILD HIS FATHER LEFT THE FAMILY AND HE GREW UP REALLY RESPECTING HIS MOTHER.

I THINK PART OF HIS, PART OF THE REASON HE DOESN'T DISCRIMINATE IS ROOTED IN THE WAY HE WAS RAISED.

THAT'S PART OF IT, I THINK THE OTHER PART IS JUST THAT HE IS AN EXCEPTIONAL HUMAN BEING THAT LOOKS, THAT WAS LOOKING AT THE IDEA OF JUSTICE FOR HIS DAUGHTER AS SOMETHING THAT WAS SORT OF A MORAL IMPERATIVE FOR HIM.

>> AND YOU KNOW, I WAS IMPRESSED BY THE MOM, AS WELL.

WAS SHE EDUCATED?

WAS SHE LITERATE?

WHAT DID SHE DO?

BUT SHE WAS THE THING --SHE WAS THE ONE SAYING NO, THAT'S NOT RIGHT.

>> THE MOM IS FIERCE.

SHE IS REALLY FIERCE.

VERY STRONG.

NEITHER ONE OF THEM IS PARTICULARLY EDUCATED.

SHE WAS NOW SHE IS STAYING HOME TAKING CARE OF THE KIDS.

I DON'T KNOW WHERE HER PARTICULAR KIND OF FIRE COMES FROM BUT I THINK THAT WAS THE EXTRAORDINARY THING ABOUT MAKING THE FILM AND THE JOURNEY THAT THEY WERE ON BECAUSE YOU SEE, YOU KNOW, HOW RANJIT WAVERS AND VACILLATES AND SHE DOES.

KIERAN NEVER DID BUT I THINK THE REASON THEY STAYED THE COURSE, IN SPITE OF ALL OF THE OBSTACLES THAT WERE BEING THROWN AT THEM REALLY HAD TO DO WITH THE FACT THAT THEY WERE INCREDIBLY UNIFIED AS A FAMILY.

>> TELL US A LITTLE BIT ABOUT KAREN.

--KIERAN.

YOU SAID YOU WOULD BE REMISS TO NOT TALK ABOUT THE FILMING --OF US CHILD.

WHAT HAPPENED, HOW DID YOU DECIDE TO BETRAY HER?

BECAUSE THESE ARE NOT ACTORS.

THIS IS A DOCUMENTARY.

>> I WAS MORTIFIED.

WE HAD THIS VERY SORT OF INTENSE DISCUSSION BEFORE WE WERE GOING TO FILL WITH THEM ABOUT THE WAY WE WERE GOING TO CAPTURE HER AND AT THAT TIME, WE DECIDED THAT WE WERE GOING TO ACTUALLY, YOU KNOW, FILM HER FROM BEHIND, FILM HER HANDS COME HER RIBBONS.

WE WERE GOING TO ACTUALLY FILM HER.

THAT WAS SUCH AN ABSTRACT, BECAUSE SOMETIMES YOU MAKE, WHEN YOU ARE MAKING A FILM, YOU MAKE DECISIONS IN SUCH AN ABSTRACT KIND OF WAY.

IT'S THE INTELLECT THAT'S OPERATING AND YOU GET INTO THE FIELD, YOU TURN THE CAMERA ON, AND EVERYTHING CHANGES.

SO I THINK WHAT HAPPENS WHEN WE START TO FILM, WAS I FELT THIS IS SO STRANGE AND IT'S SO WRONG AND WHAT I AM DOING IS I'M ACTUALLY, IN SOME WAY, PERPETUATING THE KIND OF PREJUDICE THAT I AM CRITIQUING, WHICH IS SHE HAS DONE SOMETHING, WHICH WE HAVE TO HIDE A.

>> OR PROTECTOR FROM.

>> RIGHT.

BUT IT TOOK SO LONG FOR US TO MAKE THE FILM.

EIGHT YEARS.

BY THE TIME WE FINISHED, SHE BECAME AN ADULT AND WE ASKED HER HOW SHE WOULD FEEL ABOUT COMING FORWARD.

SO SHE SAID LET ME WATCH THE FILM.

AND SHE WATCH THE FILM WITH HER PARENTS AND THEY JUST, I THINK THEY REALLY, REALLY WERE DEEPLY MOVED AND FELT SEEN AND HEARD AND VALIDATED AND SHE WAS BEAMING AND SAID YES.

>> AND YES, AND YET, PARTLY INSTRUCTIONS ALL OF US ARE DO NOT USE HER FACE, HER IMAGE, HER REAL NAME OUTSIDE OF THE CONTEXT OF THIS FILM.

>> THAT ALSO HAS A LOT TO DO WITH ME NOT WANTING TO USE HER FACE OR HER IMAGE TO MARKET THE FILM OR TO SELL THE FILM.

THERE IS SOMETHING ABOUT NOT USING A SURVIVOR IN SORT OF A CAPITALIST, YOU KNOW, IN A CAPITALISTIC WAY.

>> I UNDERSTAND THAT.

>> HOW DID YOU FIND THE MEN IN THE VILLAGE?

HOW DID YOU FIND, YOU KNOW, THEIR WILLINGNESS TO TALK ABOUT THIS, DO THINK ABOUT THIS, TO MAYBE CHANGE THEIR MIND ABOUT THIS ISSUE.

>> RESISTANCE.

>> YOU DID.

>> ABSOLUTELY.

RESISTANCE, BUT I WILL TELL YOU WHAT HAPPENED, CHRISTIANE.

IT'S SO FASCINATING.

WE ACTUALLY, I WENT TO INDIA A FEW MONTHS AGO AND I SORT OF DID SOME STRESS TEST SCREENINGS OF THE FILM BECAUSE, YOU KNOW, WE ARE GOING TO BE DOING A BIG IMPACT CAMPAIGN ON THE GROUND IN INDIA WITH THE FILM AND KIERAN AND RANJIT, IF THEY WANT TO COME, AND THE AWARD MEMBER IS THE ONE WHO IS QUITE SORT OF, I GUESS, IN SOME WAY, YOU KNOW, IF THE FILM HAS A REAL BAD GUY THAT WE MEET, IT'S HIM AND THE WARD MEMBER SAW THE FILM AND LOVE THE FILM AND AFTER WATCHING IT SAID THAT HE FELT ASHAMED OF HIMSELF AND HE FELT THAT --WHAT THEY PUT THE FAMILY THROUGH.

>> WOW.

YOU CAN ASK FOR MORE THAN THAT IN TERMS OF IMPACT OF A FILM.

>> THAT'S CHANGE ON THE GROUND.

THAT SOME TECTONIC PLATES SHIFTING IN THE COMMUNITY.

WE NEED MORE MEN LIKE THAT TO BE TRANSFORMED.

YOU KNOW?

PUTTING A MIRROR UP TO THOSE GUYS.

>> IN THE OPENING SEQUENCE, THE NARRATOR ASKED THIS QUESTION.

THE RATE KEEPS COMING IN.

IT'S TIME WE ASK OURSELVES, IS THERE SOMETHING FUNDAMENTALLY WRONG WITH OUR COUNTRY?

THAT AGAIN IS A VERY TOUCHY THING TO SAY BECAUSE INDIA IS A VERY PROUD NATION, ESPECIALLY AT THE MOMENT.

THERE IS A TERRIBLE STATISTIC.

SOMETHING LIKE A RAPE IS REPORTED EVERY 20 MINUTES?

THAT'S A REALLY HORRIFYING STATISTIC.

DO YOU FEEL YOU HAVE AN ANSWER TO THAT QUESTION?

WHETHER WE SHOULD, IN FACT, IS THERE SOMETHING FUNDAMENTALLY WRONG WITH THE COUNTRY, OR DO YOU THINK THIS IS SOMETHING --NO, IT'S JUST TOO COMMON INTO MANY COUNTRIES.

>> I WAS JUST GOING TO SAY.

YOU KNOW, MAYBE THERE'S SOME -- SOMETHING FUNDAMENTALLY WRONG AGAINST THE WORLD WHERE SEXUAL VIOLENCE, RAPE, IT'S SO COMMON.

RECOGNIZING THAT IT'S A GLOBAL ISSUE.

I WOULD SAY THAT IN INDIA, I WOULD SAY THAT IT'S AN EPIDEMIC.

YOU KNOW?

>> AND WE CAN SEE IT, WE ARE SPEAKING IN THE MIDST OF TWO WARS IN WHICH SEXUAL VIOLENCE IS BEING PERPETRATED ON VICTIMS AGAINST, YOU KNOW, THE WOMEN IN ISRAEL, AGAINST WOMEN IN UKRAINE.

IT'S REALLY, VERY TOPICAL.

AS I SAID.

THE CLOSING CREDIT SAY ACCORDING TO LOCAL ACTIVISTS, THE 2018 VICTORY ENCOURAGED OTHER WOMEN AND GIRLS TO SEEK JUSTICE.

ARE YOU SEEING A KIND OF GROUNDSWELL?

>> YES AND NO.

ACCORDING TO WHAT PEOPLE TOLD US AFTER SHE CAME FORWARD, DEFINITELY BUT I THINK THE ISSUE, YOU KNOW, AND ONE PERSON STANDING UP IS NOT GOING TO CHANGE SORT OF A DEEPLY MISOGYNISTIC CULTURE, WHICH WHERE THAT PATRIARCHY AND MISOGYNY IS BAKED INTO EVERY SINGLE SYSTEM.

YOU KNOW?

SO FOR ME, THE ANSWER REALLY LIES IN EDUCATION AND BOYS AND MASCULINITY, CHANGING THE DEFINITION OF MASCULINITY.

IT'S ABOUT RAISING HER SONS IN A DIFFERENT WAY.

>> I JUST WANT TO ASK YOU A FINAL QUESTION ABOUT A FILM.

HERE WE ARE.

YOU ARE IN THE NEWSROOM.

>> I KNOW.

I WAS SAYING, I WAS HAVING FLASHBACKS.

WHERE'S THE CONTROL ROOM?

>> BUT WHAT IS NEXT FOR YOU?

>> I JUST DIRECTED MY FIRST THIS ONE.

>> IT TOUCHES ON SOME SIMILAR SUBJECTS.

I APPROACH IT IN A VERY DIFFERENT WAY.

IT'S A TROJAN HORSE PACKAGE IN A DIFFERENT CONTEXT BUT -- >> SET IN INDIA?

>> YEAH, THE KIND OF HEIGHT IN INDIA.

>> AND YOU ARE OBVIOUSLY OF INDIAN HERITAGE.

>> YOU FEEL COMPELLED TO TELL STORIES ABOUT YOUR HOME COUNTRY?

>> YEAH, ABSOLUTELY.

I WAS IN INDIA DURING THE -- AND I WAS IN A RELATIONSHIP WITH MY CO-STAR THE TIME.

AN INDIAN WOMAN.

I HAD FRIENDS THERE.

MY BEST FRIENDS, FAMILY MEMBERS STILL ABOUT THERE.

I WAS DEEPLY AFFECTED.

WATCHING KIND OF THE KIND OF UPROAR THAT HAPPENED BUT IT TOOK SUCH A HEINOUS ACT FOR SOMETHING TO REALLY HAPPEN BUT WE NEED THAT TO KEEP THAT GOING.

YOU KNOW?

WE NEED THIS STORIES LIKE THIS TO KEEP KIND OF BEING ANTHEMS FOR CHANGE.

>> HOPEFULLY, WHEN PEOPLE SEE THIS, TO KILL A TIGER, THAT WILL HAPPEN.

IT TAKES, THE PEBBLE AND THE RIPPLES AND ALL THE REST OF IT.

SO DEV, NISHA, THANK YOU FOR COMING.

>> THINGS FOR HAVING US.

>> ANTHEMS FOR CHANGE IN D. AN INSPIRING STORY.

THAT IS IT FOR NOW.

BUT WE WANT TO LEAVE YOU OF THESE IMAGES OF OUTER SPACE GETTING INTO THE FESTIVE SPIRIT.

>>> SOME 2500 LIGHT-YEARS AWAY, NASA --IT'S DEFINITELY STARTING TO LOOK A LOT LIKE CHRISTMAS OUT THERE.

THANKS FOR WATCHING, AND GOODBYE FROM LONDON.

>>